since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need...

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Actually, Sola Scriptura is not philosophical, but Biblically-based,
Actually, SS is a hermeneutical practice (or discipline if you’d rather). IOW, it is a method or theory of interpretation of the Biblical text. And it is, in fact, philosophical:
The term hermeneutics covers both the first order art and the second order theory of understanding and interpretation of linguistic and non-linguistic expressions. As a theory of interpretation, the hermeneutic tradition stretches all the way back to ancient Greek philosophy. In the course of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, hermeneutics emerges as a crucial branch of Biblical studies. Later on, it comes to include the study of ancient and classic cultures.
The Church, OTOH, is not a hermeneutical practice. It is the final arbiter to settle matters for the faithful:

Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
 
The point of bringing up those OT passages is that throughout the OT, & well into the NT, God continually instructs Israel, & then to Church not to “add” to His Word, not “take away” from it.
Very true. That leads us, I think, to a few important questions:
  • How are we to understand the midrashim and Talmud in the context of Jewish authoritative teaching? The Jews, too, had non-Scriptural tradition which they considered binding.* What would be considered ‘adding to’ or ‘taking away’ from God’s Word? Is it merely a prohibition against altering Scriptural texts (a la Ehrman’s in Misquoting Jesus)? Or is it a prohibition against teaching things that aren’t explicitly in Scripture?* Does this notion of ‘adding to’ and ‘taking away’ touch upon the question of preaching in any way? That is, unless one preaches by merely quoting Scripture, can’t it be said that he ‘adds to’ and ‘takes away’ from the things taught there? Surely, since there are doctrinal differences by Christian denomination, we might look at one preacher and say “he’s preaching the Word” and another and say “he’s adding to the Word!”… and we wouldn’t be able to come to an agreement on these opinions!* Is there any opportunity – given the witness of Scripture – to demonstrate that some individuals have God’s express permission to speak a Word that’s not contained in Scripture?
It’s a complex question, to be sure. However, one question stands above all: although we can discuss the ‘adding to’ and ‘taking away’ question, it is a subtly different question than the one that SS raises: even if we don’t alter the Word of God, where’s it written that this Word is the only thing that we can teach?
And to extend of what we “know” about God is revealed in the pages in Scripture, because as the apostle later states “ALL Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:15-16), which - specifically - he’s referring to the OT Scripture.
Amen to that – all Scripture is God-breathed! But, that doesn’t imply that only Scripture is God-breathed, does it? Or is there a citation that you can give that explicitly makes this claim (since 2 Tim 3 doesn’t make that claim!)…?
if you read the whole of 1 Corinthians 4, it’s clear the “not beyond what’s written” that Paul is referring to is the letter Paul has written to them.
Hmm… I’m surprised to see you mention this! Usually, SS adherents make the claim that it’s simply an assertion about Scripture (OT and/or NT)!
IOW, there is no indication in Paul’s first epistle the the Corinthians, or anywhere else in the NT, that it’s “permitted” to ADD to God’s Word, any more than it was with Israel in the OT.
We could probably start a whole thread on just this verse! However, you’d have to make the case that Paul is talking about Scripture here. Yes, γέγραπται usually is used in contexts that have to do with Scripture; yet, it always serves to introduce a literal quotation from Scripture. That’s not what’s going on here – there is no Scripture quote that it’s pointing to. So, some exegetes and scholars have suggested that this is not a reference to ‘Scripture’, per se, but anything from a reference to an aphorism that would have been well-known in that day to a warning to stick to his teaching in 1 Cor 1-4. Nothing, though, that suggests that Paul is talking about Scripture; and, it takes just a bit of eisegesis, don’t you think, to interpret it that way?
In Revelation Ch.1, Jesus instructs John to write “what he’s seen” (John’s past), what he “is seeing” (John’s present), as well as what John “will see” (John’s vision of future events) - John’s past, present, & future.
Well, that’s one interpretation, and I think you’re extrapolating quite a bit to make this a statement about all of Salvation History. Given that John had already seen a vision – the seven lampstands, and Christ, and the seven stars – it’s more reasonable to suggest that this is what “he’s seen”. In fact, I think it’s rather difficult for you to pull off this interpretation: if John is commanded to write what he’s seen and (as you assert) what he’s seen is his past… then John fails in his commission. He doesn’t write about the OT or his past in the book of Revelation!

Moreover, we have direct correspondences – in the text! – to the commission John receives:

The commission: Rev 1:19 –

γράψον οὖν | ἃ εἶδες | καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν | καὶ ἃ μέλλει | γενέσθαι
Write, therefore | those (things that) you saw | and those (things that) are | and those (things that) are about | to happen.

What John saw: Rev 1:20 –

τῶν ἑπτὰ ἀστέρων | οὓς | εἶδες … | καὶ τὰς ἑπτὰ λυχνίας τὰς χρυσᾶς.
The seven stars | which | you saw … | and the seven golden lampstands

What is: Rev 1:19 –

οἱ ἑπτὰ ἀστέρες | ἄγγελοι | τῶν ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησιῶν | εἰσίν,
καὶ | αἱ λυχνίαι αἱ ἑπτὰ | ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαι | εἰσίν.
The seven stars | [the] angels | of the seven churches | are,
and | the seven lampstands | the seven churches | are.

What soon will happen: Rev 4:1 –

δείξω | σοι | ἃ | δεῖ | γενέσθαι | μετὰ | ταῦτα
I will show | to you | what | must | happen | after | these [things].

I think I can make a much stronger case – using the words of Revelation itself – about what “John saw”, what “is”, and what “must happen”. And, all of these things are things that are within the Book of Revelation, and all of them are things that John wrote about there. None of these require us to believe that prohibition against adding or subtracting speaks to anything else but the words of the book of Revelation. 🤷

And… it looks like I’m out of space in this post. 6000 characters ain’t what it used to be… 😉
 
Um…if they violate Scripture, then their “different view” is unscriptual & therefore not sola scriptura. This should be self-explanatory. 🤷
So explain this one to everyone. Let’s use an example where both argument have Scripture verses that support their views.

On one side you have people who beleive baptism forgives sin. On the other side you have people who believe that baptism is purely symbolic. Both have verses they hold up as evidence their view is right.

Explain how a Christian is to judge between these competing claims, since both are supported.
 
And that’s because since Jesus is God, then obviously Jesus’ Words are God-breathed. However, since John didn’t write them down, obviously he didn’t feel they were important enough to be included in God-breathed Scripture, like everything else he wrote. Plus, these things Jesus said that weren’t written down, John never says that the Church should follow them, nor do we know what “these things Jesus said.” So, we shouldn’t ADD to God’s Word “traditions” that we don’t even know “what” Jesus actually said. If these things were important & commanded the Church to follow, God would have made sure these things Jesus said were recorded in Scripture as well…but He didn’t.

Adding extra-scriptural “tradition” like the Pharisees did with their “precepts the doctrines of men” (Matthew 15:9) is a burden of proof by Christians who reject sola scriptura to prove. But since “adding” man-made “tradition” - even that of the church - to Scripture isn’t found anywhere in Scripture, then there is no Scriptural reason to believe we should follow that “tradition.”
Do you know why it wasn’t written? Christ left the Church to deal with it.
How is it, that Traditions are an addition to the Word of God?

And you are the decider of what a man made tradition is.
I have yet know of a Tradition that leads me from God, unlike the traditions of the Pharisees.
 
So explain this one to everyone. Let’s use an example where both argument have Scripture verses that support their views.

On one side you have people who beleive baptism forgives sin. On the other side you have people who believe that baptism is purely symbolic. Both have verses they hold up as evidence their view is right.

Explain how a Christian is to judge between these competing claims, since both are supported.
I would tend to the side that teaches baptism forgives. Since it was one them who authored the principle of SS;)
 
Hello thetazlord! I am glad you came over here.

You said in post 76 (here) . . .
Adding extra-scriptural “tradition” like the Pharisees did with their “precepts the doctrines of men” (Matthew 15:9) is a burden of proof by Christians who reject sola scriptura to prove.
The “tradition of men” on this thread IS sola Scriptura thetazlord.

Sola Scriptura is an extra-Biblical tradition of men that . . . . makes void the commandments of God.
 
Hello thetazlord! I am glad you came over here.

You said in post 76 (here) . . .

The “tradition of men” on this thread IS sola Scriptura thetazlord.

Sola Scriptura is an extra-Biblical tradition of men that . . . . makes void the commandments of God.
I know you would like to “believe” that the “tradition of men” is not adding to the Word of God, but if you take into context Jesus’ conversation with the Pharisees in Matthew Ch.15, what was Jesus specifically condemning them for? Originally, they were rebuking His disciples for not ritualistically washing their hands before eating. That ritualistic “tradition” of theirs is not found anywhere in the OT. They had ADDED that tradition to Israel. Jesus then responded with “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” Jesus goes on to explain “your tradition” was that they were refusing to help their mother & father, by making the excuse that whatever they had “intended” to give their parents, they were giving to the Lord. Essentially, they were making God out to be their scapecoat. However, nowhere in the OT does it say that you shouldn’t help your parents & give all your resources to God. The Pharisees had ADDED “their tradition” to Scripture that wasn’t in Scripture. Had they went strictly by Scripture (“sola scriptura”), they would have honored God by honoring their parents by helping them just as Scripture commands. But by not following “sola scriptura” they had “invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.” Jesus even corrected them - not what “He believed” or by “His tradition” - but quoting Scripture ("For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’’). Then, Jesus quotes Scripture again, “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

So, what Jesus rebuked them for was that they weren’t following Scripture alone, but rather ADDING “their tradition” that wasn’t found in the OT Scripture, & then quoted Scripture to rebuke their extra-biblical traditions.

Taking what Jesus said to the Pharisees to mean that the extrabiblical “tradition” that He was rebuking was sola scriptura is to miss the point of “why” & for what reason He was rebuking them. Go back & reread Matthew 15:1-9.
 
Adding extra-scriptural “tradition” like the Pharisees did with their “precepts the doctrines of men” (Matthew 15:9) is a burden of proof by Christians who reject sola scriptura to prove. But since “adding” man-made “tradition” - even that of the church - to Scripture isn’t found anywhere in Scripture, then there is no Scriptural reason to believe we should follow that “tradition.”
Taz,

Sorry to pile on, since you haven’t yet had a chance to respond to an array of posts… but I couldn’t let your comments about “traditions of men” go by without response.

I’m afraid that your take on the “traditions of men” does exactly what you claim that Christians should not do – that is, your argument “takes away” the very words of Christ!

Just to make sure I’m not being ambiguous, let me state it plainly: Christ never rejected the traditions of men, as you claim He did! In fact, what Jesus rejected was those traditions that set aside the commandment of God (Mk 7:7ff).

To say that Jesus rejected “‘added’ man-made tradition” is precisely the “subtracting from Scripture” that you say we must avoid! As an example, if I told you “I never eat hamburgers while I sleep”, would it be valid to “subtract from” my statement and tell people “Gorgias doesn’t eat hamburgers!”…? Of course not – that “subtracting from” my statement renders it invalid. Likewise, if we simply claim that Jesus rejected “traditions of men”, we grossly distort His message.

Did Jesus embrace “man-made traditions”? Of course He did – and we find evidence of it in the Bible!
  • Does the Bible tell Jews to have synagogue services? Nope… but Jesus went to synagogue regularly – it “was his custom” (Luke 4:16), and we see that the first Christians continued to practice this custom (Acts 2:46; 3:1; 5:12).
  • Does the Bible prescribe a Jewish wedding ceremony? Nope… it was a “man-made tradition”. Did Jesus, then, reject it? Nope – he participated in the wedding at Cana, and raised it to high honor by virtue of the miracle He performed there! (John 2:1ff)
It’s clear, even at this brief glance, that Jesus not only accepted but also participated in “traditions of men”. However, He got really angry at those traditions that “nullified the Word of God”.

And, in fact, what Catholics call “Sacred Tradition” aren’t actions like these – ‘Tradition’, in Catholic jargon, refers to the Apostolic Teaching that Christ commanded the apostles to perform (as well as the Apostolic Teaching of the successors of the apostles continue to practice to this very day). None of these “nullify” God’s word… they explicitly obey it! In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus commands the apostles to “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. This is precisely what “Sacred Tradition” is – Apostolic Teaching.

(In fact, in response to your other point about non-Scriptural sayings of Jesus, it’s noteworthy to recognize that Jesus didn’t say “teach them to observe some of the things I have commanded you … in fact, pick some of them that you consider important and put them in a book”, but rather, “teach them to observe *all *that I have commanded you”. In other words, the extra-Scriptural teaching of the Apostles and their successors stands at odds with Sola Scriptura… but literally obeys the explicit command of Christ in His very Word.) 👍

Blessings,
G.
 
Thetazlord. You said:
I know you would like to “believe” that the “tradition of men” is not adding to the Word of God
Actually I was thinking that YOU . . .
(YOU thetazlord) would like to “believe” that the “tradition of men of sola Scriptura” is not subtracting from the Word of God
But the tradition of sola Scripture DOES subtract from the Word of God.

Just because Jesus appealed to Scripture, you conclude He is appealing to Scripture ALONE.

But it never says anything like this!

And I am saying you are “interpreting” your own tradition right into the passage by ADDING the word “ALONE” when it isn’t there in the passage and IGNORING when Jesus appeals to Scripture elsewhere when He commands MORE–much MORE.

Such is the necessity when trying to hold to traditions of men.

And by the way, where do you get your definition of “the Word of God” that you ADDED into your objection?
Then, Jesus quotes Scripture again,
I quote Scripture TOO, but you can’t conclude I affirm the tradition of sola Scriptura.

**
St. Paul MUST Be Teaching Sola Philosophia Using Thetazlord Reasoning**

St. Paul quotes Epimenides in Acts. Using thetazlord reasoning, St. Paul must be asserting sola Philosophia there.

You and I agree that Scripture is no mere Philosophy writings. But your method of reasoning (or lack thereof) is what I take issue with.

(“Oh Yeah. Jesus appeals to Scripture so it MUST mean Scripture ALONE” type of reasoning)

You ADD into Jesus words an “ALONE” that isn’t there. You will HAVE to DO this or renounce your tradition of sola Scriptura.
 
Just to make sure I’m not being ambiguous, let me state it plainly: Christ never rejected the traditions of men, as you claim He did! In fact, what Jesus rejected was those traditions that set aside the commandment of God (Mk 7:7ff).

To say that Jesus rejected “‘added’ man-made tradition” is precisely the “subtracting from Scripture” that you say we must avoid! As an example, if I told you “I never eat hamburgers while I sleep”, would it be valid to “subtract from” my statement and tell people “Gorgias doesn’t eat hamburgers!”…? Of course not – that “subtracting from” my statement renders it invalid. Likewise, if we simply claim that Jesus rejected “traditions of men”, we grossly distort His message.
The problem is that if you lived 2,000 years ago, & all I had today was an Inspired book about you that said, “Gorgias never eats hamburgers while he/she sleeps.” Although it may be “inferred” that you eat hamburgers while you’re awake, there is no real way to know for sure that you indeed eat hamburgers. I can “assume” you do, but the text doesn’t support it one way or another, so it would be incorrect for me to make that assumption, without Scriptural evidence, because “MY interpretation” that I’m imputing into the text that’s not explicitly there could be wrong. So, even if people dozens or hundreds of years later in their non-inspired writings stated “Gorgias ate hamburgers when he/she was awake, just not when he/she slept,” that it’s merely their “belief” that you did. But there’s real no way of objectively discerning if that was just their “belief” or if you actually did. And even if it was believed today that you did, & people called it “Sacred Tradition” that was passed down by your disciples, I would still need a quote from one of your disciples to believe it. Otherwise, it’s nothing more than “their traditions” - the same as the “traditions” of the Pharisees that were not found in the OT that they ADDED to.
Did Jesus embrace “man-made traditions”? Of course He did – and we find evidence of it in the Bible!
  • Does the Bible tell Jews to have synagogue services? Nope… but Jesus went to synagogue regularly – it “was his custom” (Luke 4:16), and we see that the first Christians continued to practice this custom (Acts 2:46; 3:1; 5:12).
  • Does the Bible prescribe a Jewish wedding ceremony? Nope… it was a “man-made tradition”. Did Jesus, then, reject it? Nope – he participated in the wedding at Cana, and raised it to high honor by virtue of the miracle He performed there! (John 2:1ff)
It’s clear, even at this brief glance, that Jesus not only accepted but also participated in “traditions of men”. However, He got really angry at those traditions that “nullified the Word of God”.
Attending a wedding ceremony doesn’t “ADD” to Scripture in the same way “ADDING” a man-made tradition that’s not found in Inspired Scipture does, which is what we’re discussing - extra-biblical “traditions” being just as “Inspired” as God-breathed Scripture. Remember, that is what the Pharisees were rebuking Jesus’ disciples of in Matthew Ch.15. The “Sacred Traditions” of the Pharisees that were not found in the OT - in their mind - were no different than Inspired Scripture. The “Sacred Tradition” of ritualistic washing of hands before meals wasn’t something that was commanded in OT Scripture for Jews to do - but the Pharisees still commanded it. If you notice, Jesus command to His disciples, “you know, even though it’s not in the OT Scriptures, we really should do it, because it’s the ‘Sacred Tradition’ of the Pharisees.” Rather, He rebuked the Pharisees by saying, “Why do you transgress the commandments of God for the sake of your traditions?” So, by ADDING their “Sacred Traditions” that weren’t found in Inspired Scripture, Jesus not only didn’t Jesus elevate their “Sacred Traditions” to the level of OT Scripture, but He also equated ADDING their “tradition” with “transgressing the commandments of God.”
And, in fact, what Catholics call “Sacred Tradition” aren’t actions like these – ‘Tradition’, in Catholic jargon, refers to the Apostolic Teaching that Christ commanded the apostles to perform (as well as the Apostolic Teaching of the successors of the apostles continue to practice to this very day).
The problem is that there is no way of knowing for sure that these extra-scriptural “Sacred Traditions” were actually “commanded” by Christ & His disciples to be taught to the Church. Again, you are “assuming” that these “Sacred Traditions” (something Scripture never describes “tradition” as being - “Sacred”) were. You base this “assumption” on the “beliefs” of “specific” ECF’s, who themselves “believed” that it was taught by Christ & His disciples, but in most cases the ECF’s didn’t all agree, which even CA Jimmy Akin admits to.

[CONTINUED…]
 
[CONTINUED…]
None of these “nullify” God’s word… they explicitly obey it! In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus commands the apostles to “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you”. This is precisely what “Sacred Tradition” is – Apostolic Teaching.
No, that “tradition” is what Christ explicitly commanded, which they did. But, again, all we know for certain what Christ commanded are contained in the pages of Inspired Scripture - which is quite a bit! Anything “additional” to this is an assumption that can’t be verified beyond individuals’ “beliefs” - not Christ nor His disciples themselves.
(In fact, in response to your other point about non-Scriptural sayings of Jesus, it’s noteworthy to recognize that Jesus didn’t say “teach them to observe some of the things I have commanded you … in fact, pick some of them that you consider important and put them in a book”, but rather, “teach them to observe *all *that I have commanded you”. In other words, the extra-Scriptural teaching of the Apostles and their successors stands at odds with Sola Scriptura… but literally obeys the explicit command of Christ in His very Word.) 👍
Again, when Christ said “teach them ALL what I commanded you,” we shouldn’t “assume” that Christ meant commands “in addition” to “all” of His commands in Scripture, since - again - we have no evidence that’s what He meant, nor what those extra-scriptural “commands” are, without evidence from His disciples themselves what they (allegedly) were. Remember, Jesus gave this command in Matthew 28:19-20 BEFORE the NT Scriptures were penned. So, what His disciples - like Matthew, John, Peter, etc - wrote in Inspired Scriptures are what we know were Christ’s commands. If there were any other “traditions” or “commands” that Christ gave that His disciples found “necessary” to pass onto the Church, they would included them in Inspired Scripture just like they did Christ’s other commands, since Scripture is God-breathed - something “tradition” is never referred to in Scripture - but NONE of them did.
Blessings,
G.
Grace to you.
 
But the tradition of sola Scripture DOES subtract from the Word of God.
Going strictly by Scripture, which means not adding, nor not taking away, from the Word of God is “subtracting” from the Word of God? Okay…? :confused:
Just because Jesus appealed to Scripture, you conclude He is appealing to Scripture ALONE.
Please show me a verse where He appeals to “the doctrines the precepts of men” that are NOT found in the OT Scriptures. (Oh, wait! He rebuked that) :eek:
And I am saying you are “interpreting” your own tradition right into the passage by ADDING the word “ALONE” when it isn’t there in the passage and IGNORING when Jesus appeals to Scripture elsewhere when He commands MORE–much MORE.
Please show me that verse when Jesus rebukes the Pharisees that He “appeals” to a “tradition” not found in OT Scripture.
And by the way, where do you get your definition of “the Word of God” that you ADDED into your objection?
Both the OT, as well as the NT, refers to Scripture as the “Word of God”:

blbclassic.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=word+of+god&t=NASB
St. Paul MUST Be Teaching Sola Philosophia Using Thetazlord Reasoning
St. Paul quotes Epimenides in Acts. Using thetazlord reasoning, St. Paul must be asserting sola Philosophia there.
You and I agree that Scripture is no mere Philosophy writings. But your method of reasoning (or lack thereof) is what I take issue with.
Paul quoting a non-scriptural source doesn’t violate sola scriptura, because: 1) the source doesn’t conflict with OT, nor NT Scripture; and 2) Peter affirms that ALL Paul’s epistles are Inspired Scripture. So, your argument is a moot point. Plus, Paul’s quotes doesn’t mean that the extra-biblical source itself is Inspired. Just that that particular non-contradictory verse that reinforces Inspired Scripture. The problem is that you really don’t quite got a grasp of what “sola scriptura” actually means.
(“Oh Yeah. Jesus appeals to Scripture so it MUST mean Scripture ALONE” type of reasoning)
You ADD into Jesus words an “ALONE” that isn’t there. You will HAVE to DO this or renounce your tradition of sola Scriptura.
Again, I don’t have to prove a negative (that Jesus nor His disciples didn’t consider extra-biblical “tradition” to be as Inspired as Scripture, since Jesus nor His disciples ever said that). You are the one who is asserting that it is. So, the burden of proof is on you since you are the one affirming that it is, not me who isn’t affirming that it isn’t but rather simply that Jesus & His disciples never once state that it is. In fact, when extra-scriptural “tradition” is brought up, Jesus rebukes it.
 
Do you know why it wasn’t written? Christ left the Church to deal with it.
How is it, that Traditions are an addition to the Word of God?
And beyond your “tradition” telling you that extra-biblical “traditions” are just as Inspired as Scripture is, what evidence do you have that that “belief” is true, beyond circular reasoning? What makes an extra-biblical “tradition” is “an addition to the Word of God” is that it’s extra-biblical. It’s kind of self-explanatory. :rolleyes:
And you are the decider of what a man made tradition is.
How is placing one’s faith in the Word of God - and not man-made traditions that are not found in the Word of God, “man-made”? That is self-contradictory.
I have yet know of a Tradition that leads me from God, unlike the traditions of the Pharisees.
I’m sure the Pharisees thought the same thing with their extra-scriptural man-made “traditions” as well. Remember, they believed that their “traditions” were “sacred” as well, believing they were the just as God-breathed as Scripture was.
 
So explain this one to everyone. Let’s use an example where both argument have Scripture verses that support their views.

On one side you have people who beleive baptism forgives sin. On the other side you have people who believe that baptism is purely symbolic. Both have verses they hold up as evidence their view is right.

Explain how a Christian is to judge between these competing claims, since both are supported.
If you use sola scriptura & don’t ADD to what Scripture supports, by examining the surrounding passages of those verses (& not simply “quote-mining” those individual verses), examine the original languages of the text (not a translation of it like English or Latin), & compare it to the Bible’s message as a whole, & not “assume” a word (like water) refers to water baptism, you’ll come to the conclusion - Scripturally - that water baptism does not save.
 
Actually, SS is a hermeneutical practice (or discipline if you’d rather). IOW, it is a method or theory of interpretation of the Biblical text. And it is, in fact, philosophical:
No, it’s Biblical-based, which I provided the verses from Scripture to back that up, plus a Scriptural definition of sola scriptura which most people who don’t believe in it don’t quite understand.
The Church, OTOH, is not a hermeneutical practice. It is the final arbiter to settle matters for the faithful:
Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
What does this have anything to do with whether sola scriptura is Biblical or not. I could use the same verse to argue for it.
 
Since there is no one to speak with authority regarding what Sola Scriptura means, we cannot accept your definition only, taz.

Since being on this forum I have heard about 30 different definitions of SS. Protestants, as you so rightly assert, can’t even decide among themselves what it means.

What you propose is one definition, but, alas, due to the rotten fruits of the Protestant Reformation, there is no authority to which we can appeal to definitively define SS.
The fact that Protestants don’t agree only mean that they aren’t adhering to sola scriptura either, not that sola scriptura isn’t Biblically-based. For example, there are Lutherans who “claim” to be sola scriptura, yet they baptize babies. Obviously they are not sola scriptura. Therefore, their “definition” of it isn’t accurate.
 
Who are you to say they are violating scripture, though?
I” don’t. The Word of God does. If a person supports same sex marriage & abortion, are they sola scriptura just because they claim to be? No. Why? Because sola scriptura doesn’t support these “beliefs.” That’s how.
Where is the source to which we Catholics can go and see the actual definition of SS so we can say to each other “That Taz guy really knows his stuff so we’ll take his word for it that his definition is valid”?
Is there one (a source that has an actual definition), or did you just make up your own definition like you are claiming others do?
If you just made that definition up, again, where did you get the authority to do so, and how/why is your definition more right than any of the other billion floating around out there?
This “source” is called the Bible.
 
Irrelevant. Regardless of your personal consideration about of his nature (biblically-based or not), Sola Scriptura respect a crucial issue as the determination of the Bible canon miserably fails and is obviously insufficient. The key word is** insufficient**
So, then mankind can determine on their own what “is” & what “is not” Inspired without guidance of the Holy Spirit helping them to discern the godly qualifications for Inspiration?
All extrabiblical reasons (godly atributes, lack of contraditions ,recognition of authentic authors). All of these judgements requires, demands critical and** external** studies who subdue the “sole and divine” rule to fallible and human judgements.Thanks for show all of us that we just know, the limitations of Sola Scriptura.
No, it requires godly discernment to realize that in order for something to be “God-breathed” it can’t contain errors or contradictions, otherwise it’s like saying GOD can be in error & contradict Himself.
Quicksand. The jewish canon in Jesus time was far to be uniform. In addition of the short canon of Saducees, there was a palestinian canon (pharisees), an alexandrian canon (jews in the exile) and even a essenian canon. Today Ethiopian Jews still use the alexandrian canon not the palestinian one. All of this only shows that each jewish tradition had and have its authority to determine the exact canon. The same can be said about the christian canon. Again, thanks to corroborate that the Bible canon cannot be determined by the insufficiency of Sola Scriptura but by the respective authority of each tradition.
The fact that the Jews weren’t “universal” in what was, and was not, Scripture, doesn’t change the fact that Jesus did (Luke 27:44-45), & the fact that Jesus refers to Scripture as “the Law & the Prophets,” which the Pharisees would have understood that to mean the EXACT SAME writings that are in the OT Protestant canon today.
At the end the real question is the same: Who does have the infallible authority to determine the infallible canon of the Bible?
Jesus Christ (Luke 27:44-45)
 
The fact that Protestants don’t agree only mean that they aren’t adhering to sola scriptura either, not that sola scriptura isn’t Biblically-based. For example, there are Lutherans who “claim” to be sola scriptura, yet they baptize babies. Obviously they are not sola scriptura. Therefore, their “definition” of it isn’t accurate.
Who speaks with authority for the definition of SS?

And what is the definition again of SS?

And where is this definition found in the Bible?
 
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