Since the Eastern Orthodox Church is said to have valid Holy Orders, doesn't that indirectly mean that they have a valid Eucharist?

[Atreyu]

If I am ever offered Communion in an Orthodox church, you may be sure that I will accept it openly. I reject any sense of ‘illicitness’ . This whole matter of “My Jesus is licit and yours isn’t” has got to be the most insane thing I have ever heard. Christ is present in the Eucharist. Period. This goes beyond anything the Church may decide when it comes to a valid sacrament…in my opinion.

Let’s say you have a Catholic priest, let’s call him “Father Joe”. Father Joe is validly ordained and practices as a priest for 10 years. Now after 10 years, Father Joe begins to believe in some fairly strange ideas. Let’s say he begins to believe that abortion is not a sin and should be encouraged for family planning. Now, Father Joe’s bishop decides this is becoming serious enough that he gives him a please explain. When Father Joe receives the bishop’s letter, he goes out in front of many people and burns it in a big publicity stunt. As such, the bishop decides he is left with no choice but to excommunicate Father Joe. Father Joe is now no longer in Communion with the Catholic Church. However, he is still a validly ordained priest. As such, for a Catholic to receive Communion in Father’s Joe’s church would be illicit. In essence, it signifies that you disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion and you agree with Father Joe.

This situation is exactly the same as the situation with the Orthodox. In receiving Communion from their church, you are in essence denying the teaching of the Catholic Church. Actually, you are also denying the teaching of the Orthodox Church while you’re at it.

This has got nothing to do with the ridiculous notion of “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” which you are insisting, and everything to do with the Communion of Saints.

What you have done is a grave sin - according to both Churches. That’s one thing the Churches can agree on…

 

[Atreyu]

Ignatius of Antioch:

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid

Who is your bishop? Has he entrusted the administration of the Eucharist to an Orthodox priest?

 

[Atreyu]

I disagree. The way I see it, to practice open Communion between the Catholic and Orthodox would begin the healing process. The Eucharist is the key to unity. When both ‘lungs’ of the Church recognize that fact, the Holy Spirit will “breathe more deeply.”

So you think that the best thing we could do to bring back unity to our Churches is to break the Canon Law of both Churches?

This schism is up to the bishops to sort out. We may say that it is ridiculous - and it is - but all that we can do is to pray and to encourage our bishops and that is it. The end never ever ever justifies the means.

 

[peary]

Let’s say you have a Catholic priest, let’s call him “Father Joe”. Father Joe is validly ordained and practices as a priest for 10 years. Now after 10 years, Father Joe begins to believe in some fairly strange ideas. Let’s say he begins to believe that abortion is not a sin and should be encouraged for family planning. Now, Father Joe’s bishop decides this is becoming serious enough that he gives him a please explain. When Father Joe receives the bishop’s letter, he goes out in front of many people and burns it in a big publicity stunt. As such, the bishop decides he is left with no choice but to excommunicate Father Joe. Father Joe is now no longer in Communion with the Catholic Church. However, he is still a validly ordained priest. As such, for a Catholic to receive Communion in Father’s Joe’s church would be illicit. In essence, it signifies that you disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion and you agree with Father Joe.

This situation is exactly the same as the situation with the Orthodox. In receiving Communion from their church, you are in essence denying the teaching of the Catholic Church. Actually, you are also denying the teaching of the Orthodox Church while you’re at it.

This has got nothing to do with the ridiculous notion of “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” which you are insisting, and everything to do with the Communion of Saints.

What you have done is a grave sin - according to both Churches. That’s one thing the Churches can agree on…

**To equate abortion with the reception of a valid Eucharist is preposterous! The teaching of the Catholic Church is: Christ is present in the Eucharist in body, blood, soul, and divinity under bread and wine. The teaching of the Orthodox churches is: Christ is present in the Eucharist in body, blood, soul, and divinity under bread and wine. Priests in both parts of the whole Church are ordained from a valid priesthood. The Eucharist in both parts of the Church is valid.

If reception of Christ in the Eucharist is a mortal sin because of some insane theological notion, then so be it. I’ll take the matter up with my Creator when I pass on. You STILL do not understand that for the Church to finally unite, it needs to center on the Eucharist for such unification because that is the ONLY starting point.**

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Let’s say you have a Catholic priest, let’s call him “Father Joe”. Father Joe is validly ordained and practices as a priest for 10 years. Now after 10 years, Father Joe begins to believe in some fairly strange ideas. Let’s say he begins to believe that abortion is not a sin and should be encouraged for family planning. Now, Father Joe’s bishop decides this is becoming serious enough that he gives him a please explain. When Father Joe receives the bishop’s letter, he goes out in front of many people and burns it in a big publicity stunt. As such, the bishop decides he is left with no choice but to excommunicate Father Joe. Father Joe is now no longer in Communion with the Catholic Church. However, he is still a validly ordained priest. As such, for a Catholic to receive Communion in Father’s Joe’s church would be illicit. In essence, it signifies that you disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion and you agree with Father Joe.

This situation is exactly the same as the situation with the Orthodox. In receiving Communion from their church, you are in essence denying the teaching of the Catholic Church. Actually, you are also denying the teaching of the Orthodox Church while you’re at it.

This has got nothing to do with the ridiculous notion of “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” which you are insisting, and everything to do with the Communion of Saints.

What you have done is a grave sin - according to both Churches. That’s one thing the Churches can agree on…

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but if “Father Joe” is excommunicated, then doesn’t that make any sacraments that he administers invalid? I guess I’m still having a little trouble understanding how something can be both “valid” yet “illicit”.

 

[bobzills]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but if “Father Joe” is excommunicated, then doesn’t that make any sacraments that he administers invalid? I guess I’m still having a little trouble understanding how something can be both “valid” yet “illicit”.

I think that even if he is excommunicated, his Masses would be valid, but unlawful.

 

[Atreyu]

**To equate abortion with the reception of a valid Eucharist is preposterous! **

I did not do this. Reread my post, because you did not understand what I was saying.

**The teaching of the Catholic Church is: Christ is present in the Eucharist in body, blood, soul, and divinity under bread and wine. The teaching of the Orthodox churches is: Christ is present in the Eucharist in body, blood, soul, and divinity under bread and wine. Priests in both parts of the whole Church are ordained from a valid priesthood. The Eucharist in both parts of the Church is valid. **

Yes you are totally right. The Eucharist of the excommunicated priest is also valid.

If reception of Christ in the Eucharist is a mortal sin because of some insane theological notion, then so be it. I’ll take the matter up with my Creator when I pass on. You STILL do not understand that for the Church to finally unite, it needs to center on the Eucharist for such unification because that is the ONLY starting point.

OK, so if we can do this with the schismatic Orthodox, then how far do we go? Can we also Commune with the Old Catholic Church?

Do you believe there is such a thing as a schismatic?

 

[Atreyu]

Madaglan - I was hoping to send you a private message. Do you mind? Can you clear some space so I can send it to you?

 

[wynd]

I disagree. The way I see it, to practice open Communion between the Catholic and Orthodox would begin the healing process. The Eucharist is the key to unity. When both ‘lungs’ of the Church recognize that fact, the Holy Spirit will “breathe more deeply.”

Intercommunion can only be practiced once both churches share the same faith. The Eucharist is the sign of and a result of unity, not a means to it.

 

[holdencaulfield]

@Atreyu:

Great point.

 

[Madaglan]

Very good point. As an aside, are there specific Orthodox churches that believe this, or is it people within the various churches who have different beliefs about the Catholic Eucharist?

I haven’t spoken with enough Orthodox to know for sure. I am not aware of any Orthodox declarations that Roman Catholic sacraments are graceless, but it is believed by many Orthodox.

 

[Madaglan]

I disagree. The way I see it, to practice open Communion between the Catholic and Orthodox would begin the healing process. The Eucharist is the key to unity. When both ‘lungs’ of the Church recognize that fact, the Holy Spirit will “breathe more deeply.”

I disagree. True, by allowing open communion relations between the two would foster greater friendship, but a common Eucharist indicates common belief, and the Eucharist should not be a tool for restoring this common belief.

Many Protestants practice open communion and what has resulted is a de-emphasis on doctrine to the point of doctrinal relativism.

 

[Madaglan]

Let’s say you have a Catholic priest, let’s call him “Father Joe”. Father Joe is validly ordained and practices as a priest for 10 years. Now after 10 years, Father Joe begins to believe in some fairly strange ideas. Let’s say he begins to believe that abortion is not a sin and should be encouraged for family planning. Now, Father Joe’s bishop decides this is becoming serious enough that he gives him a please explain. When Father Joe receives the bishop’s letter, he goes out in front of many people and burns it in a big publicity stunt. As such, the bishop decides he is left with no choice but to excommunicate Father Joe. Father Joe is now no longer in Communion with the Catholic Church. However, he is still a validly ordained priest. As such, for a Catholic to receive Communion in Father’s Joe’s church would be illicit. In essence, it signifies that you disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on abortion and you agree with Father Joe.

This situation is exactly the same as the situation with the Orthodox. In receiving Communion from their church, you are in essence denying the teaching of the Catholic Church. Actually, you are also denying the teaching of the Orthodox Church while you’re at it.

This has got nothing to do with the ridiculous notion of “my Jesus is better than your Jesus” which you are insisting, and everything to do with the Communion of Saints.

What you have done is a grave sin - according to both Churches. That’s one thing the Churches can agree on…

I do not think the parallel between “Father Joe” and the “Orthodox” is a just one, since the Orthodox are not heretics, even according to the Latin Church, and they do not preach abortion, either.

Orthodox practice closed communion, so a Catholic likely would not receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, unless he slips unnoticed.

 

[Madaglan]

Madaglan - I was hoping to send you a private message. Do you mind? Can you clear some space so I can send it to you?

Yes, I’m clearing up a few now.

 

[Atreyu]

I do not think the parallel between “Father Joe” and the “Orthodox” is a just one, since the Orthodox are not heretics, even according to the Latin Church, and they do not preach abortion, either.

It was not my intent to do this. I think a careful reading of my post shows that I did not make this parallel. I was simply trying to come up with a situation where Peary would have to agree that the Eucharist was valid but not licit. To come up with a situation, I tried to think of the most egregious thing I could think of. But I never meant to say that Father Joe is like the Orthodox.0

Orthodox practice closed communion, so a Catholic likely would not receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, unless he slips unnoticed.

Good stuff.

 

[bobzills]

Intercommunion can only be practiced once both churches share the same faith. The Eucharist is the sign of and a result of unity, not a means to it.

The Eastern Orthodox generally, at least in the USA, don’t want Catholics to receive Holy Communion in their Churches. So if you let the Eastern Orthodox priest know ahead of time, that you are a Catholic, he most likely will advise you not to receive Holy Communion.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

My Catholic cousin just told me that one may LICITLY receive the eucharist in the opposite church IF a parish of their own cannot be found in a reasonable distance.

So as a Catholic, he would be able to receive the Orthodox communion one Sunday let’s say if he were somewhere in Siberia and there wasn’t a Catholic parish for hundreds of miles?

 

[bobzills]

My Catholic cousin just told me that one may LICITLY receive the eucharist in the opposite church IF a parish of their own cannot be found in a reasonable distance.

So as a Catholic, he would be able to receive the Orthodox communion one Sunday let’s say if he were somewhere in Siberia and there wasn’t a Catholic parish for hundreds of miles?

Yes.
I think it is always advisable to let the Orthodox priest know that you are Catholic.

 

[Lilyflower]

of which Catholics should be able to freely partake (and vise versa)?

Catholics should not participate freely of the Orthodox Eucharist without prior permission from the relevant Orthodox Priest.

Some do not agree to Catholics receiving much the same way as we may object to Anglicans receiving our Eucharist.

 

[Milliardo]

Yes.
I think it is always advisable to let the Orthodox priest know that you are Catholic.

Though that will not guarantee the Orthodox priest will give the Catholic Communion (and most likely won’t anyway).