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Crescentinus
Guest
You sir are correct.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
What I want to know is WHY we should specifically change the definition of marriage then. I see no good reason. Until somebody can provide me a good reason why we should allow same-sex couples to have the same rights as married couplesLeaving aside why someone should have to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers for rights that are conferred with a marriage licence that costs a few bucks, marriage is recognized the world over. Same sex unions are not. So spending thousands of dollars in legal fees to get contracts drawn up in one State (assuming you can in that State) means squat in another State.
Not so with marriage.
Sarah x
My hypothetical brother and I, living together, can raise a child too. As can me and my best friend, who is not my lover, Bob (made up name). Why can we not be married?
I’m still not convinced that the change of their status to marriage is more than arbitrary.
Our friend Lockbrenna has had no issue giving us statistics from clearly pro same-sex marriage organizations, so I feel that I’m within my rights to give statistics from the pro heterosexual only Family Research Council. An interesting read.
frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Interestingly I have one Catholic friend who is mostly pretty liberal. He is pro-life, although he has some reservations about cases of rape or the life of the mother; he gets around them, but with some hesitation.
I assumed, considering his liberalism and his hesitating stance on pro-life issues, that he would probably be pro-gay marriage. Indeed, he has some big problems with organizations like the Family Research Council and organizations like it, and has the attitude that homosexuals in general are being persecuted-for example, he was with the homosexuals in the recent Chick-fil-A controversy.
So when I asked him about his position he cut me off and said, paraphrased, “Pro-gay marriage arguments are completely ridiculous. I don’t even consider them. Changing the definition of marriage arbitrarily because a group of people just “Want” it makes absolutely no sense.”
Remember, this is a person who’s stance on pro-life issues is more reserved, and who agrees with the liberals when they say homosexuals are being persecuted. So hearing this from him was very surprising.
Food for thought.
I assumed, considering his liberalism and his hesitating stance on pro-life issues, that he would probably be pro-gay marriage. Indeed, he has some big problems with organizations like the Family Research Council and organizations like it, and has the attitude that homosexuals in general are being persecuted-for example, he was with the homosexuals in the recent Chick-fil-A controversy.
So when I asked him about his position he cut me off and said, paraphrased, “Pro-gay marriage arguments are completely ridiculous. I don’t even consider them. Changing the definition of marriage arbitrarily because a group of people just “Want” it makes absolutely no sense.”
Remember, this is a person who’s stance on pro-life issues is more reserved, and who agrees with the liberals when they say homosexuals are being persecuted. So hearing this from him was very surprising.
Food for thought.
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
Score!
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
Lokabrenna-
I enjoy your contributions on the forums. You are the only ‘vanic pagan’ I have any knowlege of and I find your views amusing.
The thread here has been devoted to the ‘gay marriage’ issue in large part, but your original post says I can ask anything, so here goes:
My impression is that almost everything in your (gays) life is colored by your sexual orientation.
Politics
Religion
World view
Science
Entertainment
I can’t say the same for heteros I guess…
Why then (if I’m correct) does your sexual orientation shape the rest of your lives? Would it be fair to say that your vision of a perfect future makes your orientation not a factor in every other area…i/e a non-issue?
I mean absolutely no dis-respect here! Forgive me if I’m way off base with this.
I know “We come from all walks of life with different views…etc,etc” But I guess what I’m asking, for an example say…politics…My impression is “I’m gay and I don’t like Bla-DeBla because he is not friendly to our community” Or, for entertainment “I like Show-DeShow because it portrays us as positive”.
Thanks
I enjoy your contributions on the forums. You are the only ‘vanic pagan’ I have any knowlege of and I find your views amusing.
The thread here has been devoted to the ‘gay marriage’ issue in large part, but your original post says I can ask anything, so here goes:
My impression is that almost everything in your (gays) life is colored by your sexual orientation.
Politics
Religion
World view
Science
Entertainment
I can’t say the same for heteros I guess…
Why then (if I’m correct) does your sexual orientation shape the rest of your lives? Would it be fair to say that your vision of a perfect future makes your orientation not a factor in every other area…i/e a non-issue?
I mean absolutely no dis-respect here! Forgive me if I’m way off base with this.
I know “We come from all walks of life with different views…etc,etc” But I guess what I’m asking, for an example say…politics…My impression is “I’m gay and I don’t like Bla-DeBla because he is not friendly to our community” Or, for entertainment “I like Show-DeShow because it portrays us as positive”.
Thanks
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Seeker1961
Guest
I think that everything in straight people’s lives are colored by their orientation as well, but because they are the majority and fully integrated into society they don’t even notice it.
meltzerboy
New member
Most people are complicated and sometimes espouse, for whatever reason, what seem to be surprising and contradictory positions on issues.
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
You have touched on one part of my question…
But I have to disagree that straight orientation primarily colors our lives and opinions on every topic. Such is my perception of the gay community. Gay comes first. Why?
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I wouldn’t say that the Vikings were “tolerant towards homosexuality”. The concept of homosexuality is a modern one (same with race), and attitudes towards homosexuality had less to do with "two men getting together is ‘intrinsically disordered’
and more to do with power and an archaic understanding of masculinity. As long as you were the one “on top” no one really had much of a problem, it was the partner on the bottom that was heavily penalized, because then he was “acting like a woman”.
My beliefs on this matter stem more from my own experiences and modern conceptualizations of sex and gender that the vikings didn’t have. I came to this understanding of same-sex relations before I ever found the way of the Vanir, but the fact is, they were much less concerned about same-sex relations and much more concerned with power and preserving a certain view of masculinity.
I can’t speak for every Vanatruar, but we are generally known as a more “liberal” branch of Heathenry (although I personally don’t use the word “Heathen” to describe myself). In North America, Heathenry is associated with conservative politics. In Northern Europe (especially Iceland) it’s actually the opposite. Generally speaking though, diversity of opinion does exist within Paganism (after all, “Paganism” is not a single religion, but many religions, of course there’s a lot of diversity).
meltzerboy
New member
And I don’t believe the Vikings said much about lesbianism since both partners are women, which means they are already “inferior” in terms of power.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Lokabrenna,
Fair enough.
Let me ask you this.
Stereotype is so common. Would it be fair to say that homosexuals are not, excuse my english, but not just one thing. Forgive me for saying “one thing” however as a point of discussion I say this.
In other words it would be inherently wrong to say that all homosexuals look like this. Would you agree with that?
It would be wrong to say that all homosexuals read certain books. Would you agree with that?
It would be wrong to say that all homosexuals watch certain movies. Would you agree with that?
The point is that as I understand it homosexuals are diverse. While I am not ascribing to what is called “gay culture” it would be assumed that this culture would have differences within that culture as would be found in any culture. Would you agree with that?
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Lokabrenna
Guest
True, we are talking about a patriarchal society, here, but the writers who gave us most of the material on the Northern lands were men, who were mostly concerned with “manly things” like fighting, and less about what women were doing. The ancient world in general doesn’t really have a lot to say about lesbians, but there is the matter of the “women’s quarters” (dyngja) where a man could not go without accumulating immense shame, and if a man really objected to his wife having a relationship with other women, she could just divorce him. As long as a woman did her “duty” as a wife and mother, no one really seemed to care. In fact, the link to the Viking Answer Lady mentions that insults directed at men because of homosexuality did NOT refer to a woman’s sexuality in their feminine forms, but to a more general sense of “immodesty” (like cutting her hair, bearing weapons, or dressing in men’s clothing.)
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Seeker1961
Guest
I don’t think about it all really, unless faced with temptation or the subject actually gets brought up. I don’t think anyone here talks or thinks about it in real life as much as they do on this forum-at least I hope not!
I have made it a rule not to lie, so if someone asks me why I’ve never married or why I don’t have children I tell them the truth. I do still have a lot of gay friends, so we tend to talk issues related to the gay community, but that’s among “family”, just like Catholics talk about Catholic issues when they get together.
So I really wouldn’t say “gay comes first”, but it does color certain issues, just as being Catholic does. I think a lot of people here would consider themselves “Catholic first”.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
I would, I personally don’t subscribe to the whole “butch/femme” stereotype. I don’t think anyone really expects that heterosexuals have a certain “look” either.
Of course not.
I don’t watch a lot of movies, actually.
The thing is that minorities tend to create sub-cultures within a larger culture. Individual LGBTs might not like, say Rubyfruit Jungle but it is one of the earliest examples of “lesbian literature”. There are LGBT+s who want to distance themselves from stereotypes, and there are those who say “Well, if you insist on branding me like this, I might as well embrace it.” and there are those for whom, well, dressing flamboyantly is a part of their personality regardless of their sexual orientation. The “leather” community first gained popularity among gay men, but that doesn’t mean all gay men are into the kinds of things that those gay men are into. Personally, I’m not into leather.
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bri89
Guest
From my understanding the vikings, like the ancient Greeks, and some other cultures, were tolerant of homosexuality so long as those who had same-sex sex still married and reproduced. A man living in India said that his mother didn’t care if he had sex with men so long as he stayed married to his wife. This is probably how homosexuality exists in most cultures, there is a substantial number of people who are to some degree naturally bisexually inclined but live openly within the traditional framework. What is unique to our modern culture, mostly in the anglo countries, is exclusive homosexuality. The exclusiveness is modern and the exclusiveness is what is perceived as so threatening because it rejects traditonal marriage and the duty of procreation. What is also unique to our culture is “gay” as an identity, " a lifestyle", a sensibility, and a culture. I don’t know how positive a development this is. I think we still need a better, more thoughtful and nuanced understanding of sexuality in our culture.
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interestedman
Guest
Do you know what else rejects traditional marriage and duty of procreation? Becoming a priest or nun.
Also it is quite possible that exclusive homosexuality is new (to be honest I don’t know if that is true or not) because there isn’t societal pressure to take a wife and reproduce like there was back then.
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bri89
Guest
Exactly. I am not opposed to people living exclusively as homosexual, or people being celibate. I don’t see why there should be hostility to either, I don’t see why it should be imperative for everyone to procreate.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
It what was surprising, but I don’t think technically contradictory. It’s just a personality combination you don’t see every day.
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Lokabrenna
Guest
Seeker already said it:
My mother can give my father a kiss goodbye in public and no one notices. At the dinner table, my brothers could talk about their girlfriends (and later, their wives) and no one bats an eyelash. They can walk down the street holding hands, and no one will be the wiser for it. The media is saturated with male-female couples. No one would dream of pulling a show from the air because it features a heterosexual couple as the main characters (as they’ve done with “the New Normal”). I can pick up a random book from my library, and the protagonists will probably be heterosexual. If a character’s sexuality is not mentioned, it’s assumed sie’s heterosexual unless sie says otherwise.
Where do I go if I want to find people like me in books? In the section labeled “LGBT interest” (or whatever). It’s considered too “risky” to publish novels with protagonists like me, because “the mainstream” can’t identify with an LGBT protagonist (unless, of course, you’re an established author like Mercedes Lackey).
And yet, if I were to do the same things that heterosexual couples do every day, I’m “flaunting” my sexuality. Really? By holding hands? Kissing someone I love goodbye? It’s not like I’m making out in public (there’s a time and a place for that sort of PDA).
In a perfect world, everyone would see everyone as people first, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or any other identifier, but that’s not what happens, and the very worst thing we can do, IMO, is claim that we are blind to these prejudices, because these things don’t go away just because someone says “But I don’t see color/gender/sexual orientation…”
As for why LGBT+ comes first. Well, why do we speak of “the black community”, “the Pagan community”, or well, any community of minorities? It’s the nature of a minority group to find commonalities in their shared oppression. In the case of the LGBT+ community, we are defined by the fact that we are “not-heterosexual”. I have friends from Quebec, and they see themselves as Quebeckers first, Canadians second, whereas I seldom think of myself as “an Ontarian”. Identity is a strange thing like that.
If I can quote Anderson Cooper: “It just got to the point where, I’ve been torn for a long time between the desire as a reporter to just do my job and be known as a reporter,” Cooper explained. “And, at the same time, I think visibility is important…The tide of history only moves forward when everybody is fully visible…I didn’t want to send a message that it was anything I was ashamed about or unhappy about or not comfortable with. And that was the main thing for me. I mean, I appreciate all the support I got and all the encouragement.” Would I like to be known as a person who happens to be a lesbian? Of course, but homophobia isn’t just going to go away if I stop referring to myself in terms of my sexuality, and it’s definitely not going to stop certain anti-LGBT groups from only seeing me in terms of my sexuality. This is my way of saying “I’m here, and there’s no way in Hel I’m going back in that closet!”
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
You’re just describing an inevitability of being a minority. Once a group of Catholic school students, including me, went to a “mock legislature” where we discussed laws and things that we proposed. There were nine of us Catholics. There were 20 people from the other schools there. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them was an atheist. If we mentioned religion in any capacity, we were pounced upon-and I’m talking for real issues, not for the heck of it. It got so bad that my teacher protested and took us out early.
You’re a minority, and stuff like that is going to happen. It’s not right, but by identifying yourself as a homosexual you’re only feeding into the stereotype.
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