singing in a Tridentine choir

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moira

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Hi, I’m just curious. How many women out there in Tridentine choirs are not allowed to sing the Kyriale (Kyrie, Gloria, Creedo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) at Mass? Not just the Propers but the entire Mass. Not even a chant hymn.

We have a new director (and I use the term loosely) who will not allow the women to sing any of the chant. He will only allow us to sing the polyphonic pieces. And since he doesn’t know how to direct us in polyphony, we don’t sing.

We were dismissed on Holy week and haven’t sung since.
 
So you could sing a polyphonic Sanctus but not a chant Sanctus? How much sense does that make?
 
VociMike said:
So you could sing a polyphonic Sanctus but not a chant Sanctus? How much sense does that make?
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Yes, exactly and it makes no sense. Especially since we’ve been singing chant for almost three years. Then a new guy comes in and says it isn’t allowed.
He pulled up some old 1903 Pius X document to prove it. I sent him a 1955 and 1958 document that says we can sing but he is CHANT MASTER and will not allow it.

Needless to say, the women are upset. We can’t sing because we don’t have a certain body part?
 
Makes perfect sense. Sing archaic music, follow archaic rules. Obviously, just kidding. Is there any relationship between this Chant by a choir and the chanting by a female organist of those same Mass parts during daily Mass back in the 40’s?Have the rules changed since 1903?. Maybe like ol Rip van Winkle he has been asleep since 1903.
 
moira said:
Yes, exactly and it makes no sense. Especially since we’ve been singing chant for almost three years. Then a new guy comes in and says it isn’t allowed.
He pulled up some old 1903 Pius X document to prove it. I sent him a 1955 and 1958 document that says we can sing but he is CHANT MASTER and will not allow it.

Needless to say, the women are upset. We can’t sing because we don’t have a certain body part?
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There is a certain breed of traditionalist who is their own worst enemy, and it sounds like you’ve found one in your midst. Take half of your supporters and make them into enemies for no good reason - that’s brilliant.

I’d try and get the men on your side. And your priest, what does he say?
 
BTW, what 1955 and 1958 documents did you offer on your behalf? I know Musicae Sacrae is from 1955.

– OK, I think I answered my own question. “De musica sacra et sacra liturgia” is from 1958.

I’d say he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
 
That sounds rather strange to me. I’ve been to four churches that celebrate the Tridentine Mass and all of them have had women in the choir singing chant to the mass ordinary. One of those was an wedding at an SSPX chapel and the ENTIRE choir was women’s voices (singing both the ordinary and propers).

Aesthetically, I like the sound of chant when all the voices are in the same octave, whether its a men’s or women’s choir (to my ears there is a disunity in mixed voice chant choirs) and perhaps the director is just trying to find a way to make that happen. I don’t know the guy of course so I couldn’t really say with any certainty. Have you approached the pastor? Do you think that he’ll be able to sway the director?

That is a very good point about the polyphonic sanctus vs. chant sanctus. It seems at best wishy-washy, and at worst just plain hypocritical.
 
VociMike said:
BTW, what 1955 and 1958 documents did you offer on your behalf? I know Musicae Sacrae is from 1955.

– OK, I think I answered my own question. “De musica sacra et sacra liturgia” is from 1958.

I’d say he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
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You got it. Those are the documents I found. I sent them to him and also told him that Father told the congregation to sing with the choir during high Mass. So I asked him if it made any sense that we can sing in the congregation but not in the choir loft. He agreed that that was kind of odd but then turned around and reiterated that women could not sing chant. I think he just wants total control.
In four months he has taken a mixed choir of about 15 down to about 6 men. It’s really sad.
 
moira said:
In four months he has taken a mixed choir of about 15 down to about 6 men. It’s really sad.
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and they wonder why Catholics can’t sing.
the choirs of my childhood, with extensive chant repertoire (including our youth choir, in which we sang at least 3 different chant mass settings) were co-ed. We had a similar situation, choir director volunteered to start a schola, but alientated so many people, including the organist, deacon, pastor and other choir directors that we almost lost all church music altogether until he left. It somebody is bent on defending Tradition, he had better be very well educated on the particular tradition he is upholding.
 
VociMike said:
There is a certain breed of traditionalist who is their own worst enemy, and it sounds like you’ve found one in your midst. Take half of your supporters and make them into enemies for no good reason - that’s brilliant.

I’d try and get the men on your side. And your priest, what does he say?
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Well, my husband is one of the men. He’s disgusted with it all. I’m not sure what the other men think. I would think that they’d be disgusted, too, since several of them have wives in choir also. And for some reason, our priest goes along with it. He must not see the difference in telling the congregation to sing with the choir while telling the women they can’t sing the chant. I haven’t tried to approach him yet.
 
moira said:
Well, my husband is one of the men. He’s disgusted with it all. I’m not sure what the other men think. I would think that they’d be disgusted, too, since several of them have wives in choir also. And for some reason, our priest goes along with it. He must not see the difference in telling the congregation to sing with the choir while telling the women they can’t sing the chant. I haven’t tried to approach him yet.
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Maybe it’s time for the men to go on strike.
 
Generally speaking, it is the custom for chant to be sung by either an all male schola or an all female schola, but not mixed.

If the congregation is singing a part of the ordinary, women are obviously allowed to sing that part since they comprise part of the congregation, but if all you are singing is chant and not polyphony, then you are either going to go with all men or all women, and all men is seen as preferrable.

Doesn’t sound like your choir master has done anything wrong here.
 
Katholish said:
Generally speaking, it is the custom for chant to be sung by either an all male schola or an all female schola, but not mixed.

If the congregation is singing a part of the ordinary, women are obviously allowed to sing that part since they comprise part of the congregation, but if all you are singing is chant and not polyphony, then you are either going to go with all men or all women, and all men is seen as preferrable.

Doesn’t sound like your choir master has done anything wrong here.
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The common (and quite sensible) approach in this case is to let the men sing one part of the Mass, and the women another, and so on.

And she did specifically mention that it was the Kyriale they were forbidden from singing, which contains the chant Ordinaries of the Mass.
 
The way the choir at te Tridentine Mass I attend uses male and female voices in different ways, (together, alternating, etc.) produces the most beautiful sound I have ever heard–it’s angelic. I’ve yet to hear a choir compare with them 🙂
 
We used to sing it alternating with our old director. The women have been singing the Kyriale for the past couple of years with never a complaint.
The new guy is the one who said ‘no more’. That’s what’s so frustrating.
 
moira said:
Yes, exactly and it makes no sense. Especially since we’ve been singing chant for almost three years. Then a new guy comes in and says it isn’t allowed.
He pulled up some old 1903 Pius X document to prove it. I sent him a 1955 and 1958 document that says we can sing but he is CHANT MASTER and will not allow it.
Click to expand...
I think this is the part in Tra le Sollecitudini that he probably brought to everyone’s attention:

V. The singers
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.
By this it is not to be understood that solos are entirely excluded. But solo singing should never predominate to such an extent as to have the greater part of the liturgical chant executed in that manner; the solo phrase should have the character or hint of a melodic projection (spunto), and be strictly bound up with the rest of the choral composition.
13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.
What exactly did you cite from the other documents? Just curious.
moira said:
Needless to say, the women are upset. We can’t sing because we don’t have a certain body part?
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It is understandable that you are upset, but don’t you find this comment of yours to be out of line?
 
E.E.N.S said:
13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.
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I’ve often wondered what the women in convents were supposed to do at Mass given this prohibition.

And then there are these words from Vatican II, which apply to the whole Church today, not just to the Novus Ordo.

The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.
 
E.E.N.S said:
I think this is the part in Tra le Sollecitudini that he probably brought to everyone’s attention:

V. The singers
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.
By this it is not to be understood that solos are entirely excluded. But solo singing should never predominate to such an extent as to have the greater part of the liturgical chant executed in that manner; the solo phrase should have the character or hint of a melodic projection (spunto), and be strictly bound up with the rest of the choral composition.
13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.
What exactly did you cite from the other documents? Just curious.

It is understandable that you are upset, but don’t you find this comment of yours to be out of line?
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Sigh! Even the SSPX notes that there were exceptions. Too bad they only listed two.

sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__liturgical.htm
 
E.E.N.S said:
I think this is the part in Tra le Sollecitudini that he probably brought to everyone’s attention:

V. The singers
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.
By this it is not to be understood that solos are entirely excluded. But solo singing should never predominate to such an extent as to have the greater part of the liturgical chant executed in that manner; the solo phrase should have the character or hint of a melodic projection (spunto), and be strictly bound up with the rest of the choral composition.
13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.
What exactly did you cite from the other documents? Just curious.

It is understandable that you are upset, but don’t you find this comment of yours to be out of line?
Click to expand...
 
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