singing in a Tridentine choir

[moira]

I think this is the part in Tra le Sollecitudini that he probably brought to everyone’s attention:

V. The singers
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.
By this it is not to be understood that solos are entirely excluded. But solo singing should never predominate to such an extent as to have the greater part of the liturgical chant executed in that manner; the solo phrase should have the character or hint of a melodic projection (spunto), and be strictly bound up with the rest of the choral composition.
13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.

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What exactly did you cite from the other documents? Just curious.

It is understandable that you are upset, but don’t you find this comment of yours to be out of line?

Not really E.E.N.S. A little crude perhaps (and I apologize if I offended you) but not out of line.The women are getting the shaft. I joined that choir at the first Mass they had and have been singing the chant all along. Now we have been disbanded and can’t even sing polyphony. If we ever get back together we will have lost a lot of what we had learned because of lack of practice.

You guys sound pretty good. But we sounded good before the women were dismissed.

 

[moira]

I’ve often wondered what the women in convents were supposed to do at Mass given this prohibition.

And then there are these words from Vatican II, which apply to the whole Church today, not just to the Novus Ordo.

The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. Choirs must be diligently promoted, especially in cathedral churches; but bishops and other pastors of souls must be at pains to ensure that, whenever the sacred action is to be celebrated with song, the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that active participation which is rightly theirs, as laid down in Art. 28 and 30.

Great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutions and schools. To impart this instruction, teachers are to be carefully trained and put in charge of the teaching of sacred music.

Thank you, VociMike. Exactly. We may be attending a Tridentine Mass but we are still following Vatican II.
It’s so hard to get people for a choir anyway that you just don’t dismiss anyone.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I’ve often wondered what the women in convents were supposed to do at Mass given this prohibition.
…]

Sigh! Even the SSPX notes that there were exceptions. Too bad they only listed two.

sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__liturgical.htm

This has already been covered by the Chant Master with the choir, and even listed in the link you provided:

PART I. Can women be permitted to sing in the choir in church?

The principles are given by Pope Saint Pius X in his motu proprio on the restoration of Sacred Music, and in particular of the ancient Gregorian Chant. This document of Nov. 22, 1903, is entitled Tra le sollecitudine and is published in its entirety in the March 1995 issue of The Angelus (pp.36-40).

The Pope states repeatedly that the Sacred Chant is an integral part of the liturgy, directed to the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. (§1) It is consequently not a performance, but a part of the act of divine worship. His conclusion follows: “Except the chant of the celebrant and the sacred ministers at the altar, which must always be sung in plainchant without any accompaniment, the rest of the liturgical singing belongs properly to the choir of clerics…It follows from the same principle that the singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that women therefore, being incapable of such an office, cannot be admitted to the choir” (§§12, 13).
[Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

PART II. Does this mean that women should not sing in church at all?

The fact that women cannot perform the liturgical office of singing does not mean that they should not sing in church at all. To the contrary, they should participate in the congregational singing. That such congregational singing is indeed the mind of the Church is indicated by Pope Pius XI in his Apostolic Constitution of Dec. 20, 1928, on the Liturgy, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Music:"In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies… they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed"(§IX).
There are some exceptions to the rule forbidding women from singing in choirs. One such exception is religious women in their own community. (I believe this addresses your concern, VociMike.) Canon Law permits them to sing the chants of Mass, if permitted by their constitutions, but providing that they are in a place where they cannot be seen by the faithful (*1917 Code of Canon Law, *Canon 1264), since they are not a choir in the liturgical sense.

Another exceptional case (and it is important that it remains exceptional) is **when there is a dearth of male singers **(when the meeting with the choir took place there were 4 or 5 men in the Schola, now there is 7 or 8, and there are a couple who are interested in joining - hardly a dearth of male singers), and when it is necessary for the solemnity of the service that men and women join in the singing. (Predmore, Rev. George, Sacred Music and the Catholic Church, 1936, p.117). However," …we are to make every possible and fair effort to introduce either congregational singing of the liturgy, or to have male choirs. But the service is not to be made unbecoming, distracting, or ridiculous by literal adherence to the law, where the conditions really hinder its decorous observance" (ibid. p.118).

 

[E.E.N.S]

Not really E.E.N.S. A little crude perhaps (and I apologize if I offended you) but not out of line.The women are getting the shaft. I joined that choir at the first Mass they had and have been singing the chant all along. Now we have been disbanded and can’t even sing polyphony. If we ever get back together we will have lost a lot of what we had learned because of lack of practice.

You guys sound pretty good. But we sounded good before the women were dismissed.

When did this happen? As I remember it there were only going to be a couple of people here for the summer and that is the reason there is a break until August - not a total disbandonment. And also there was never any mention of a ban on polyphony, on the contrary it was promoted, but again there was going to be almost no one here to sing it for the summer.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

When did this happen? As I remember it there were only going to be a couple of people here for the summer and that is the reason there is a break until August - not a total disbandonment. And also there was never any mention of a ban on polyphony, on the contrary it was promoted, but again there was going to be almost no one here to sing it for the summer.

Yep, that is what I remember.

 

[bear06]

This has already been covered by the Chant Master with the choir, and even listed in the link you provided:

PART I. Can women be permitted to sing in the choir in church?

The principles are given by Pope Saint Pius X in his motu proprio on the restoration of Sacred Music, and in particular of the ancient Gregorian Chant. This document of Nov. 22, 1903, is entitled Tra le sollecitudine and is published in its entirety in the March 1995 issue of The Angelus (pp.36-40).

The Pope states repeatedly that the Sacred Chant is an integral part of the liturgy, directed to the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. (§1) It is consequently not a performance, but a part of the act of divine worship. His conclusion follows: “Except the chant of the celebrant and the sacred ministers at the altar, which must always be sung in plainchant without any accompaniment, the rest of the liturgical singing belongs properly to the choir of clerics…It follows from the same principle that the singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that women therefore, being incapable of such an office, cannot be admitted to the choir” (§§12, 13).
[Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

PART II. Does this mean that women should not sing in church at all?

The fact that women cannot perform the liturgical office of singing does not mean that they should not sing in church at all. To the contrary, they should participate in the congregational singing. That such congregational singing is indeed the mind of the Church is indicated by Pope Pius XI in his Apostolic Constitution of Dec. 20, 1928, on the Liturgy, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Music:"In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies… they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed"(§IX).
There are some exceptions to the rule forbidding women from singing in choirs. One such exception is religious women in their own community. (I believe this addresses your concern, VociMike.) Canon Law permits them to sing the chants of Mass, if permitted by their constitutions, but providing that they are in a place where they cannot be seen by the faithful (*1917 Code of Canon Law, *Canon 1264), since they are not a choir in the liturgical sense.

Another exceptional case (and it is important that it remains exceptional) is **when there is a dearth of male singers **(when the meeting with the choir took place there were 4 or 5 men in the Schola, now there is 7 or 8, and there are a couple who are interested in joining - hardly a dearth of male singers), and when it is necessary for the solemnity of the service that men and women join in the singing. (Predmore, Rev. George, Sacred Music and the Catholic Church, 1936, p.117). However," …we are to make every possible and fair effort to introduce either congregational singing of the liturgy, or to have male choirs. But the service is not to be made unbecoming, distracting, or ridiculous by literal adherence to the law, where the conditions really hinder its decorous observance" (ibid. p.118).

Again, this is from the SSPX and again, they’re using selected exceptions. I’d love to see a list of them all.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Again, this is from the SSPX and again, they’re using selected exceptions. I’d love to see a list of them all.

Again, they are the same exceptions that the documents themselves say.

 

[moira]

When did this happen? As I remember it there were only going to be a couple of people here for the summer and that is the reason there is a break until August - not a total disbandonment. And also there was never any mention of a ban on polyphony, on the contrary it was promoted, but again there was going to be almost no one here to sing it for the summer.

What I meant is that we can’t sing polyphony all summer and by the time we get back it will have been several months since we practiced together. To me it is a disbandment until then. Don’t forget, we haven’t sang since before Holy Week. No, polyphony wasn’t banned but he has taken the men off to his schola and we have no one left to sing polyphony. We need the men to sing it just as you need the women.
And if you remember, at that meeting with Fr., someone mentioned that the women shouldn’t even sing chant hymns! How absolutely ridiculous.

 

[VociMike]

What I meant is that we can’t sing polyphony all summer and by the time we get back it will have been several months since we practiced together. To me it is a disbandment until then. Don’t forget, we haven’t sang since before Holy Week. No, polyphony wasn’t banned but he has taken the men off to his schola and we have no one left to sing polyphony. We need the men to sing it just as you need the women.
And if you remember, at that meeting with Fr., someone mentioned that the women shouldn’t even sing chant hymns! How absolutely ridiculous.

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe the women should band together and form an Anonymous-4 type of ensemble.

 

[moira]

Just thinking out loud here. Maybe the women should band together and form an Anonymous-4 type of ensemble.

Our director wants the women to sing three-part polyphony. It sounds so much better with four mixed voices. You’re not going to find too many women that can sing the bass part.
We need all of the voices.

 

[E.E.N.S]

What I meant is that we can’t sing polyphony all summer and by the time we get back it will have been several months since we practiced together. To me it is a disbandment until then. Don’t forget, we haven’t sang since before Holy Week. No, polyphony wasn’t banned but he has taken the men off to his schola and we have no one left to sing polyphony. We need the men to sing it just as you need the women.
And if you remember, at that meeting with Fr., someone mentioned that the women shouldn’t even sing chant hymns! How absolutely ridiculous.

But the decision to break for the summer wasn’t his, per se, as it was those of whom will be gone for vacation. And as for him taking **all **the men from the polyphony over to the schola, well I think this isn’t very accurate as I can only think of one person, that being myself (completely my choice - I was not influenced one wayor the other!). None of the other men who were in the schola originally were from the choir, and the couple who came over recently were not leaving the choir but doing both.

 

[moira]

The principles are given by Pope Saint Pius X in his motu proprio on the restoration of Sacred Music, and in particular of the ancient Gregorian Chant. This document of Nov. 22, 1903, is entitled Tra le sollecitudine and is published in its entirety in the March 1995 issue of The Angelus (pp.36-40).

It is not 1903. And there have been other documents stating something different since then.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread has become a personal conversation. Please PM one another about specifics of this particular case.

And, please only discuss the general implications of such decisions by choir directors, etc., on the forum. Thank you.

 

[moira]

But the decision to break for the summer wasn’t his, per se, as it was those of whom will be gone for vacation. And as for him taking **all **the men from the polyphony over to the schola, well I think this isn’t very accurate as I can only think of one person, that being myself (completely my choice - I was not influenced one wayor the other!). None of the other men who were in the schola originally were from the choir, and the couple who came over recently were not leaving the choir but doing both.

Actually, E.E.N.S., you’re right. He only wanted the ones he invited. The ones he thought were any good. This is a church choir. You take anyone that is willing to join because they are doing it for the right reason. To give glory to God. It shouldn’t matter if they have the best voice or not. How would you feel if you were one of the men who weren’t chosen?

 

[E.E.N.S]

It is not 1903. And there have been other documents stating something different since then.

Let’s discuss specifically what you are refering to. Could you please post the document and paragraph in question? I know you brought up Musica Sacrae (1955) but in my reading of it I was unable to find anything in it that gives an exception to our particular situation, in fact it seemed, more than anything else, to be reiterating what Pope St. Pius X was saying in *Tra le Sollecitudini *(1903). Perhaps if you point me to the proper section we could examine it more closely.

 

[bear06]

Again, they are the same exceptions that the documents themselves say.

And the other exceptions are found in what documents? There’s two listed. What are the other exceptions and other documents? SSPX doesn’t by any means say that there are just 2.

Notice that they fail to quote from De musica sacra et sacra liturgia, Musicae Sacrae or Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, No’s. 3964, 4201, 4231 ? What else are they “forgetting”?

Women, however, may never act as commentator; in case of necessity, a woman would be permitted only to lead the prayers, and singing of the congregation

And here’s where it’s thrown back to the local ordinaries (which is pretty much what I thought was going to find lacking in the SSPX quotes):

1. Wherever such a choir cannot be organized, a choir of the faithful, either mixed or consisting only of women or girls, can be permitted. But such a choir should take its place outside the sanctuary or Communion rail. The men should be separated from the women or girls so that anything unbecoming may be avoided. *Local Ordinaries are to issue precise regulations about these matters, and pastors are to see to their enforcement *(Decr. Auth. SCR 3964, 4210, 4231, and the encyclical Musicæ sacræ disciplina: AAS [1956] 23).

Our choir is in the loft where it should be.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Actually, E.E.N.S., you’re right. He only wanted the ones he invited. The ones he thought were any good. This is a church choir. You take anyone that is willing to join because they are doing it for the right reason. To give glory to God. It shouldn’t matter if they have the best voice or not. How would you feel if you were one of the men who weren’t chosen?

We need to leave the personal parts out of this as the moderator has stated, but I will make this last comment: I wasn’t “chosen” nor was anyone else, all the tenors were given the opportunity to chose the choir, the schola, or both.

However if you read ANY document put forth by the Church on liturgical music you will most certainly find that the choir/schola is not for just anyone, but for those who have a skill in this area, often refered to as masters or professionals. (I am no master by any means, lol, but I am not tone deaf either - I consider myself unworthy of a position in the schola, personally.)

 

[E.E.N.S]

And the other exceptions are found in what documents? There’s two listed. What are the other exceptions and other documents? SSPX doesn’t by any means say that there are just 2.

Notice that they fail to quote from De musica sacra et sacra liturgia, Musicae Sacrae or Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, No’s. 3964, 4201, 4231 ? What else are they “forgetting”?

And here’s where it’s thrown back to the local ordinaries (which is pretty much what I thought was going to find lacking in the SSPX quotes):

Our choir is in the loft where it should be.

Notice:

1. Wherever such a choir cannot be organized, a choir of the faithful, either mixed or consisting only of women or girls, can be permitted. But such a choir should take its place outside the sanctuary or Communion rail. The men should be separated from the women or girls so that anything unbecoming may be avoided. *Local Ordinaries are to issue precise regulations about these matters, and pastors are to see to their enforcement *(Decr. Auth. SCR 3964, 4210, 4231, and the encyclical Musicæ sacræ disciplina: AAS [1956] 23).

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We do not have that problem so the exception doesn’t fall to us.

 

[bear06]

Notice:

1. Wherever such a choir cannot be organized, a choir of the faithful, either mixed or consisting only of women or girls, can be permitted. But such a choir should take its place outside the sanctuary or Communion rail. The men should be separated from the women or girls so that anything unbecoming may be avoided. *Local Ordinaries are to issue precise regulations about these matters, and pastors are to see to their enforcement *(Decr. Auth. SCR 3964, 4210, 4231, and the encyclical Musicæ sacræ disciplina: AAS [1956] 23).

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We do not have that problem so the exception doesn’t fall to us.

You’re missing the point. How many other exceptions does the SSPX skip? Also, the 1917 code canon law is not even quoted in its entirety on the matter and the current code does not even bind us to this as far as I know. At one point it did with exceptions.

Also, 7 or 8 men may very well be considered a dearth. I can personally attest to the fact that a choir will sound much better with a plethera of bodies. Our children’s choir has almost 40. It raises the volume quite well and covers those whose voices might not be perfect that day or those who are asleep.

 

[E.E.N.S]

You’re missing the point. How many other exceptions does the SSPX skip? Also, the 1917 code canon law is not even quoted in its entirety on the matter and the current code does not even bind us to this as far as I know. At one point it did with exceptions.

Also, 7 or 8 men may very well be considered a dearth. I can personally attest to the fact that a choir will sound much better with a plethera of bodies. Our children’s choir has almost 40. It raises the volume quite well and covers those whose voices might not be perfect that day or those who are asleep.

Negative. I only referenced the SSPX because you brought it up - I used your link. I asked for a specific exception to our case.

7 or 8 men in our schola is fine for the time being. We were getting compliments at 4, but this is besides the point. Being that we are a mission of only 200-300 people (and it doesn’t even seem like that many), a fairly new schola that is rapidly growing (4 to 8 in a month is rapid), would be far fetched to qualify for a lack of men.