Sinless Perfection?

[rlg94086]

Hello rlg94086,

I did say my own presentation, so let me then further explain my thoughts and include the passage of Scripture, in the hope of clarity. This is after all a most difficult subject to explain from reason alone. We are so dependant upon the Scriptures for light. Excuse my indulgence, but this is the best that I can do with my current imperfections.

Perhaps I should have explained what I understand by the word ‘mature’. The idea of *moral excellence *is in mind, and though we do indeed **‘press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus’, **we of ourselves cannot achieve sinless perfection, for we must indeed die to the ‘I’, for it is Christ who is our life, who is this perfection that might bring us to where He was, when He said that it is not I but the Father who does the works, and words.’

**Galatians 2:20 **- Is certainly something Paul had in mind when He said He was ready to leave having run the race.

Perhaps this passage alone contains the seed thought that grants the final step to sinless perfection, or being as Christ. I am not thinking Thomas A. Kempis and Norman Grubb…no, I am thinking Christ, not even Paul.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit, this is the Scripture that I believe contains the seed thought, pointing away from our sinless perfection, to the genuine sinless perfection which is Christ in us, as Paul writes, the hope of glory.

Excuse the muddle, these ideas do have the habit of falling on top of one rather definitely as the Ides of March approaches. (or death of Caesar - I mean my ego god.)

Sorry, the third time, here is the Scripture.


Pophead.

It is an interesting concept (very Tibetan Buddhist). Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. How are you doing, losing your “I”? Based on your posts, I would guess not so well.

It isn’t the first time I’ve heard this theory, but I’m not clear that this is what the Scripture teaches. Did any of the Church Fathers understand Christ’s teachings in this way?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

A Plain Account of Christian Perfection By John Wesley

'To explain myself a little farther on this head(1) Not only sin, properly so called (that is, a voluntary transgression of a known law), but sin, improperly so called (that is, an involuntary transgression of a divine law, known or unknown), needs the atoning blood. (2) 1 believe there is no such perfection in this life as excludes these involuntary transgressions, which i apprehend to be naturally consequent on the ignorance and mistakes inseparable from mortality. (3) Therefore, sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself. (5) Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please: I do not, for the reasons above mentioned.

worldinvisible.com/library/wesley/8317/831706.htm

It sounds like Wesley is making distinctions in sin between serious willful sin, and sin due to ignorance or moral defect.

 

[St_Gabriel]

1 John 1:8:10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Sorry I can’t get the rest of the passage: Keep reading it for yourself.

Good thing we have the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[Pophead]

It is an interesting concept (very Tibetan Buddhist). Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. How are you doing, losing your “I”? Based on your posts, I would guess not so well.

Haaaahahahahaha… it probably got lost in the mountains of Tibet somewhere…the urge to climb ladders of perfection to God is the practice of most religionists; but it always falls short of the mark. They are all going up, or down…or East or West, when Jesus already came down.

Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

1 John 1:8:10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Very concise, Gabriel. Sinless perfection is nothing more than a pagan invention of religionists. Too many try so hard to get rid of sin by their own blood, sweat and tears. The only repentance that is worth anything is preceeded by ‘godly sorrow’.

Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

Therefore, sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself.’

(from your quote of John Wesley.)

Thanks Daniel,
Not having read much John Wesley, it certainly escalates the case against ‘sinless perfection’ being nothing more than pagan philosophical nonesense.

1 John 1:7

‘But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.’

What do you understand by ‘walk in the light’ ?

Peace,
Pophead.

ps. Not perfect, just forgiven.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Rom 12:1-3
Eph 5:18

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Romans 8

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Also, see elsewhere, today were I wrote about the “spirit of christ”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I see walking in the light as being walking in the spirit of christ or walking in accordance with the Holy Spirit. If you have the fruit of the spirit active in your life, there is no need for Law of God because the fruit of the spirit does not in anyway violate the laws of God. Gal 5

 

[rlg94086]

Haaaahahahahaha… it probably got lost in the mountains of Tibet somewhere…the urge to climb ladders of perfection to God is the practice of most religionists; but it always falls short of the mark. They are all going up, or down…or East or West, when Jesus already came down.

Pophead.

Here, we can all agree.

Although, I’m wondering if it may be easier to lose the “I”…as well as all sense of direction, in the high altitudes of Tibet.

 

[Pophead]

I see walking in the light as being walking in the spirit of christ or walking in accordance with the Holy Spirit. If you have the fruit of the spirit active in your life, there is no need for Law of God because the fruit of the spirit does not in anyway violate the laws of God. Gal 5

Baruch HaShem Adonai / Blessed be the name of the Lord,

Pophead.