Sins against purity/chasity

[TheRealJuliane]

What I did say is that everyone should take full responsibility for their own wrongs/sins. If I handed someone a gun/knife knowing that that person was looking to hurt someone, I am as responsible if he dooes hurt someone. Blaming women for using their beauty etc and inviting men to sin is an insult to women and a cop out.

No, it is not. The reality is that both men and women sin, and we can each cause the other to stumble. Women know exactly what they are doing when they dress seductively. We are trying to attract the attention of men! It feels good if we don’t know any better, to be lusted after. OF COURSE we do it for that reason! And OF COURSE it is sinful! I would say that a lot of women don’t know any better, having never been taught modesty or chastity, but it’s still not an innocent action.

Once a woman knows the value of modesty, and realizes that she causes her brothers in Christ to stumble when she is immodest, she will change her ways.

This is not blaming women for the sins of men - but we do play a part.

 

[Walking_Home]

I posted this in another discussion we both took part in. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

So with charity, your assertion that no one bears responsibility for anyone else’s sin, is not in accordance with Church teaching.

Pax

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An again – neither you ,or I —or anyone else---- can transfer to someone else responsibility for the sin one commits.

POST-SYNODAL APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS CLERGY AND FAITHFUL
ON RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE
IN THE MISSION OF THE CHURCH TODAY

Personal Sin and Social Sin

1. Sin, in the proper sense, is always a personal act, since it is an act of freedom on the part of an individual person and not properly of a group or community. This individual may be conditioned, incited and influenced by numerous and powerful external factors. He may also be subjected to tendencies, defects and habits linked with his personal condition. In not a few cases such external and internal factors may attenuate, to a greater or lesser degree, the person’s freedom and therefore his responsibility and guilt.** But it is a truth of faith, also confirmed by our experience and reason, that the human person is free. This truth cannot be disregarded in order to place the blame for individuals’ sins on external factors **such as structures, systems or other people. Above all, this would be to deny the person’s dignity and freedom, which are manifested-even though in a negative and disastrous way-also in this responsibility for sin committed. Hence there is nothing so personal and untransferable in each individual as merit for virtue or responsibility for sin .

As a personal act, sin has its first and most important consequences in the sinner himself: that is, in his relationship with God, who is the very foundation of human life; and also in his spirit, weakening his will and clouding his intellect.

 

[Dan_Daly]

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An again – neither you ,or I —or anyone else---- can transfer to someone else responsibility for the sin one commits.

I think you are misunderstanding. There is no “transfer” of sin. If I have an apple and I transfer the apple to you…you have an apple and now I don’t. That is not what happens. There is a SHARED burden of sin, not a transferred one. You have an apple and I have an apple. Each person has their own personal sin. One person’s personal sin is that they helped lead the other person into sin.

Pax Chrisit

 

[severus68]

No, it is not. The reality is that both men and women sin, and we can each cause the other to stumble. Women know exactly what they are doing when they dress seductively. We are trying to attract the attention of men! It feels good if we don’t know any better, to be lusted after. OF COURSE we do it for that reason! And OF COURSE it is sinful! I would say that a lot of women don’t know any better, having never been taught modesty or chastity, but it’s still not an innocent action.

Once a woman knows the value of modesty, and realizes that she causes her brothers in Christ to stumble when she is immodest, she will change her ways.

This is not blaming women for the sins of men - but we do play a part.

Dressing to feel good about yourself and to feel attractive is not a sin. Really, how many women dress to feel lusted after? I think it is a wrong assumption to make that women dress only to attract men. It is really rather insulting to women to say that most don’t know any better and their actions are not innocent.

How did this thread become again a thread on modesty of dress for women.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think you are misunderstanding. There is no “transfer” of sin. If I have an apple and I transfer the apple to you…you have an apple and now I don’t. That is not what happens. There is a SHARED burden of sin, not a transferred one. You have an apple and I have an apple. Each person has their own personal sin. One person’s personal sin is that they helped lead the other person into sin.

Pax Chrisit

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By “sharing” the burden— you are still transfering responsibility for the sin to another person. And this does not change – no matter how you or anyone else-- tries to go around it.

 

[Walking_Home]

TheRealJuliane:

No, it is not. The reality is that both men and women sin, and we can each cause the other to stumble. Women know exactly what they are doing when they dress seductively. We are trying to attract the attention of men! It feels good if we don’t know any better, to be lusted after. OF COURSE we do it for that reason! And OF COURSE it is sinful! I would say that a lot of women don’t know any better, having never been taught modesty or chastity, but it’s still not an innocent action.

Once a woman knows the value of modesty, and realizes that she causes her brothers in Christ to stumble when she is immodest, she will change her ways.

This is not blaming women for the sins of men - but we do play a part.

Dressing to feel good about yourself and to feel attractive is not a sin. Really, how many women dress to feel lusted after? I think it is a wrong assumption to make that women dress only to attract men. It is really rather insulting to women to say that most don’t know any better and their actions are not innocent.

How did this thread become again a thread on modesty of dress for women.

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[TheRealJuliane]

Dressing to feel good about yourself and to feel attractive is not a sin. Really, how many women dress to feel lusted after? I think it is a wrong assumption to make that women dress only to attract men. It is really rather insulting to women to say that most don’t know any better and their actions are not innocent.

How did this thread become again a thread on modesty of dress for women.

There is a difference between dressing to feel good about yourself and dressing to cause men to lust. Did I say that most women don’t know any better? I said “a lot” of women don’t, having been raised in this secular, sexualized society by parents who probably had no direction themselves. I think many women believe that is what men want and that is what feels “good” to the women, not knowing anything else is possible.

The modesty in dress issue is part of the sin against purity/chastity issue.

 

[Walking_Home]

There is a difference between dressing to feel good about yourself and dressing to cause men to lust. Did I say that most women don’t know any better? I said “a lot” of women don’t, having been raised in this secular, sexualized society by parents who probably had no direction themselves. I think many women believe that is what men want and that is what feels “good” to the women, not knowing anything else is possible.

The modesty in dress issue is part of the sin against purity/chastity issue.

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Lust comes from the inside – a disordered heart/mind – that turns a person into an object to be used by the mind. It does not come from the outside in.

 

[severus68]

There is a difference between dressing to feel good about yourself and dressing to cause men to lust. Did I say that most women don’t know any better? I said “a lot” of women don’t, having been raised in this secular, sexualized society by parents who probably had no direction themselves. I think many women believe that is what men want and that is what feels “good” to the women, not knowing anything else is possible.

The modesty in dress issue is part of the sin against purity/chastity issue.

So, a lot of women dress to cause men to lust and it makes them feel good? I disagree. While women sin too, it is all too easy to say (many) women are the cause of men sinning. Both men and women are quite able to sin by their own little selves.

Sin was rampant even when women covered up to their necks and ankles and it is where women are forced to cover up.

 

[Paddy1989]

I disagee with what you say. Please dont make it personal

Ok, i just thought you were purposely nit picking

 

[Paddy1989]

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Lust comes from the inside – a disordered heart/mind – that turns a person into an object to be used by the mind. It does not come from the outside in.

Of course but these fashion’s and behavior’s whether it be done in society, pornography etc is done to flare up these unnatural feeling’s on the inside from the outside. To say that human’s are not tempted by such vice’s of original sin is silly. Sin is something we all struggle with

 

[Bearontherun]

No, it is not. The reality is that both men and women sin, and we can each cause the other to stumble. Women know exactly what they are doing when they dress seductively. We are trying to attract the attention of men! It feels good if we don’t know any better, to be lusted after. OF COURSE we do it for that reason! And OF COURSE it is sinful! I would say that a lot of women don’t know any better, having never been taught modesty or chastity, but it’s still not an innocent action.

Once a woman knows the value of modesty, and realizes that she causes her brothers in Christ to stumble when she is immodest, she will change her ways.

This is not blaming women for the sins of men - but we do play a part.

(I’m a :curtsey: btw)

 

[Paddy1989]

Dressing to feel good about yourself and to feel attractive is not a sin. Really, how many women dress to feel lusted after? I think it is a wrong assumption to make that women dress only to attract men. It is really rather insulting to women to say that most don’t know any better and their actions are not innocent.

How did this thread become again a thread on modesty of dress for women.

This thread is about purity and Chasity, if we are to examine how secular culture has normalized thing’s like pornography we must first examine how societies mindset have been changed to adapt this way. When it come’s to certain fashion’s that are VERY revealing you will find that the very reason these were created was for explicit reason’s and to bring attention to specific area’s. I do not think that any woman apart from a few go out to be lusted after but that they are fooled to believe that certain fashion’s that expose certain area’s make them appear more attractive and therefore they feel such a way.

How many secular parent’s see what Rihanna wear which is very little as wrong and how she behave’s? They see nothing wrong with it and let their children fall into such admiration. Is it so shocking therefore that these young girl’s see that this woman who is made to appear as beautiful, sexy and desirable end wanting to become like them. Do you think they even understand the harm in which sexualizing oneself can do to their image and how they will be treated by secular men. It’s clear therefore that women have been victimized and duped and once they have been overly sexualized by their teen’s you almost see little of their femininity which God put in them remain. Like the secular men before them they themselves seek self gratification as the main source of their live’s. The further inward we become the less masculine and feminine we remain. I believe masculinity and femininity should also be expressed in our dressing such as much as our character

 

[Stephentlig]

It is like this: the body when absent of food, becomes weak and tiresome, we bump into things, forget things and often become grumpy and say things we shouldnt.

So the soul, which needs prayer to survive, when prayer is absent from it, then the soul becomes weak as does our control over the flesh. This is how temptations and sexual impure acts with ourselves or others creep in.

With supreme prayer of the heart and watchfulness this can be cured but it’s rare for someone to be completely exempt from falling into commiting these sins unless they lead the life of spiritual perfection like the monks or hermits. And again it would be truely rare for any monk not to have these ‘‘temptations’’ at all.

Sometimes masturbation can be a horrible Cross that one has to just go to confession again and again and just work with the Lord in trying to overcome it, but it can be overcome if the person in question really wants to overcome it.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Lust comes from the inside – a disordered heart/mind – that turns a person into an object to be used by the mind. It does not come from the outside in.

Of course but these fashion’s and behavior’s whether it be done in society, pornography etc is done to flare up these unnatural feeling’s on the inside from the outside. To say that human’s are not tempted by such vice’s of original sin is silly. Sin is something we all struggle with

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Clothes are neutral. The problem is how one person views another human being-- the person. To place responsibility on a person for “flaring” up unnatural feelings – for how they dress – is leaning towards taking on a manichaean type of mentality toward the human body.

 

[Paddy1989]

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Clothes are neutral. The problem is how one person views another human being-- the person. To place responsibility on a person for “flaring” up unnatural feelings – for how they dress – is leaning towards taking on a manichaean type of mentality toward the human body.

Clothes are certainly not neutral, for one uses clothe’s to reflect modesty, if one is dressed immodesty then it is certainly not neutral. I agree no-one should view another human being in this way but as i said many women want to be viewed in a way that is appealing to themselves and other’s so in some cases they dress up in fashion’s that are immodest not realizing these very fashion’s were created to sexualize them. I don’t think many of them truly understand this at all but simply just want to be fashionable and feel attractive to themselves and other’s. I think it’s because society has put it into many women that they can’t feel beautiful until they are sexually appealing thus fashion and “sex appeal” have almost become the same thing

 

[chris138]

So, a lot of women dress to cause men to lust and it makes them feel good? I disagree. While women sin too, it is all too easy to say (many) women are the cause of men sinning. Both men and women are quite able to sin by their own little selves.

Sin was rampant even when women covered up to their necks and ankles and it is where women are forced to cover up.

No one can force someone to sin–but if I invite a friend over who I know is dieting and make all of her favorite foods, cookies etc…and set them out for her to have…sure if she partakes that’s her fault but why would I as her friend do this?? Women who dress with thier low necklines, shorts that barely cover thier bottom–good grief men are visually stimulated. Why would a good and holy women, a sister in Christ want to do this to her brother in Christ. It’s wrong and many girls don’t understand how men are wired, I didn’t when I was young. I see girls dressed like this at Mass!! Women are not wired the same. That doesn’t mean we don’t like sex or that we can not have problems in this area or with pornography, it is just not as common.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Clothes are neutral. The problem is how one person views another human being-- the person. To place responsibility on a person for “flaring” up unnatural feelings – for how they dress – is leaning towards taking on a manichaean type of mentality toward the human body.

Clothes are certainly not neutral, for one uses clothe’s to reflect modesty, if one is dressed immodesty then it is certainly not neutral. I agree no-one should view another human being in this way but as i said many women want to be viewed in a way that is appealing to themselves and other’s so in some cases they dress up in fashion’s that are immodest not realizing these very fashion’s were created to sexualize them. I don’t think many of them truly understand this at all but simply just want to be fashionable and feel attractive to themselves and other’s. I think it’s because society has put it into many women that they can’t feel beautiful until they are sexually appealing thus fashion and “sex appeal” have almost become the same thing

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It’s a person’s mind – that makes another human being “immodest”----Not the clothes. Actually the “modesty” movement – is teaching “immodesty” of the heart/mind-- by “teaching” – that the clothes worn makes another human being “immodest”-- teaching the "objectification of another. It “teaches/puts in people minds” – to view another as lesser-- to devalue – the person – for what they wear.

 

[Paddy1989]

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It’s a person’s mind – that makes another human being “immodest”----Not the clothes. Actually the “modesty” movement – is teaching “immodesty” of the heart/mind-- by “teaching” – that the clothes worn makes another human being “immodest”-- teaching the "objectification of another. It “teaches/puts in people minds” – to view another as lesser-- to devalue – the person – for what they wear.

These Clothes were created to be and expression of immodesty, when specific area’s of one’s body is shown or exaggerated by these fashion’s it is an attempt to sexualize them, to give that “sex appeal” that so many seem to want to feel attractive. It is by no accident that the Church throughout history has always been firm that the fashion’s should always be an expression of modesty and never immodesty. If one is exposing part’s of her body that should only been seen by her husband is that not immodest? Yes i agree Christian’s should never lose respect for another no matter how they appear but lack of respect for oneself is what’s happening in society through these fashion’s, the desire for that sex appeal is itself now the fashion by default

 

[Walking_Home]

These Clothes were created to be and expression of immodesty, when specific area’s of one’s body is shown or exaggerated by these fashion’s it is an attempt to sexualize them, to give that “sex appeal” that so many seem to want to feel attractive. It is by no accident that the Church throughout history has always been firm that the fashion’s should always be an expression of modesty and never immodesty. If one is exposing part’s of her body that should only been seen by her husband is that not immodest? Yes i agree Christian’s should never lose respect for another no matter how they appear but lack of respect for oneself is what’s happening in society through these fashion’s, the desire for that sex appeal is itself now the fashion by default

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It’s your mind – that “sexualizes” - not the clothes. And again-- placing responsibility on a person as causing "lust’ – is leading toward a manichaen mentality of the human body.