Sirach...according to The King James Version

[2ndGen]

God.

Are you asking who recognized what was scripture and what wasn’t?

Yes.

 

[2ndGen]

So if you can’t trust them for the canon, how do you trust them for the text?

There loss. We’ve Orthodox: we’re not beholding to the Glossa’s mistakes.

Yes, Jerome was the first to move the mark his Fathers had set, following the tradtions of the Phariseesa, Sadducees and Scribes instead of the Apostles, and translated from A (not the Masoretic, which didn’t exist yet) text. And St. Augustine castigated him for it.

Btw the Deuterocanonicals appear among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and, for instance, Sirach is commented in the Jewish Talmud. And Hanukkah makes no sense without Maccabbees.

 

[Pwrlftr]

So if you can’t trust them for the canon, how do you trust them for the text?

You are comparing apples and oranges aren’t you?

The text comes to use through a purely mechanical means with various manuscripts providing a way to check the work that was done.

Yes, Jerome was the first to move the mark his Fathers had set, following the tradtions of the Phariseesa, Sadducees and Scribes instead of the Apostles, and translated from A (not the Masoretic, which didn’t exist yet) text. And St. Augustine castigated him for it.

I don’t know if Jerome was the first or not but please tell us what the apostles had to say about the canon.

Btw the Deuterocanonicals appear among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and, for instance, Sirach is commented in the Jewish Talmud. And Hanukkah makes no sense without Maccabbees.

You have made two assertions with no conclusion. What does
it mean to us today that the deutero’s appear among the Dead See scrolls?

What does it mean that Sirach was commented on in the Talmud?

As to the connection between Hanukkah and Maccabbees, you are reading way to much into it. A book need not be inspired to record an event.

 

[2ndGen]

I don’t know if Jerome was the first or not but please tell us what the apostles had to say about the canon.
.

The Apostles never commented on The Canon.

But their in great company for neither did Jesus Christ.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You are comparing apples and oranges aren’t you?

No.

The text comes to use through a purely mechanical means with various manuscripts providing a way to check the work that was done.

Sorry, the scribes were believers, not xerox machines.

If they are misguided on what books they copied, they could be misguided on what they copied in the books (scribal differences is a major portion of manuscript studies). Some differences in the scribal tradition seem to be motivated by doctrine.

I don’t know if Jerome was the first or not but please tell us what the apostles had to say about the canon.

They used the Septuagint, which included the Deuterocanonicals, which they cite/allude to.

You have made two assertions with no conclusion. What does
it mean to us today that the deutero’s appear among the Dead See scrolls?

The claim had been made that since they weren’t in Hebrew, they weren’t OT.

What does it mean that Sirach was commented on in the Talmud?

the jews dropped it from their canon, we did not add it to ours.

As to the connection between Hanukkah and Maccabbees, you are reading way to much into it. A book need not be inspired to record an event.

No, but it does to have it put on the Jewish calendar.

 

[2ndGen]

No.

Sorry, the scribes were believers, not xerox machines.

If they are misguided on what books they copied, they could be misguided on what they copied in the books (scribal differences is a major portion of manuscript studies). Some differences in the scribal tradition seem to be motivated by doctrine.

They used the Septuagint, which included the Deuterocanonicals, which they cite/allude to.

The claim had been made that since they weren’t in Hebrew, they weren’t OT.

the jews dropped it from their canon, we did not add it to ours.

No, but it does to have it put on the Jewish calendar.

Uh, Yeah! What Isa said!

 

[Pwrlftr]

Sorry, the scribes were believers, not xerox machines.

If they are misguided on what books they copied, they could be misguided on what they copied in the books (scribal differences is a major portion of manuscript studies). Some differences in the scribal tradition seem to be motivated by doctrine.

They had a book in front of them, how would they be misguided on what books they copied? You don’t have to believe a book is inspired to copy it accurately.

They used the Septuagint, which included the Deuterocanonicals, which they cite/allude to.

Okay, what books did the Jewish septuagint include and how do we know this? What manuscripts are available for review? Which is our earliest manuscript and when does it date to?

The claim had been made that since they weren’t in Hebrew, they weren’t OT.

Not by me.

the jews dropped it from their canon, we did not add it to ours.

When did they drop it?

No, but it does to have it put on the Jewish calendar.

So the Jews believe Maccabees to be inspired?

 

[2ndGen]

Originally Posted by Pwrlftr
God.

Are you asking who recognized what was scripture and what wasn’t?.

2ndGen answered…Yes.

Again…“who” decided “what” was God breathed?

 

[Pwrlftr]

Again…“who” decided “what” was God breathed?

I believe the early church, including the councils (Laodecia, Hippo, Carthage, etc.) made decisions as to what they recognized as being canonical.

During time surrounding the reformation the reformers sided w/ the canon Jerme proposed while Trent dogmatically accepted the 7 deuterocanonicals. I believe Trent erred in this.

Now, you have made many claims about the septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used and I have asked you to tell me how you know which books were contained in the early Jewish septuagint and thus far, you haven’t been able to answer me.

I would like for you to either admit you have no way of knowing what the Jewish septuagint contained or provide me with information on the 1st century and earlier Jewish septuagint such as:

Tell me what manuscripts are available to us and to what year these manuscripts date to,

What books did these manuscripts contain?

I’ll be happy to answer any and all of your questions as best I can but I would like for you to comply with my request.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Yes, Jerome was the first to move the mark his Fathers had set, following the tradtions of the Phariseesa, Sadducees and Scribes instead of the Apostles, and translated from A (not the Masoretic, which didn’t exist yet) text. And St. Augustine castigated him for it.

BTW, Melito of Sardis rejected the deutero’s and I believe he died around 180 AD.

So no, Jerome wasn’t the first to reject the deutero’s.

 

[2ndGen]

I believe the early church, including the councils (Laodecia, Hippo, Carthage, etc.) made decisions as to what they recognized as being canonical.

During time surrounding the reformation the reformers sided w/ the canon Jerme proposed while Trent dogmatically accepted the 7 deuterocanonicals. I believe Trent erred in this.

Now, you have made many claims about the septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used and I have asked you to tell me how you know which books were contained in the early Jewish septuagint and thus far, you haven’t been able to answer me.

I would like for you to either admit you have no way of knowing what the Jewish septuagint contained or provide me with information on the 1st century and earlier Jewish septuagint such as:

Tell me what manuscripts are available to us and to what year these manuscripts date to,

What books did these manuscripts contain?

I’ll be happy to answer any and all of your questions as best I can but I would like for you to comply with my request.

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

 

[Pwrlftr]

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

Read the bottom of my last post. I’ll be happy to answer any of your questions as best I can but I have one condition.

 

[YADA]

First I believe you are being in accurate to write that Jerome proposed a ‘different’ cannon. He did no such thing. His introductions included brief comments about what the jewish response to the txts would be, not his opinion. He wrote about this in a seperate document *.

Second, what do you men by jewish septuagint? the septuagint was a greek translation of hebrew witings and the septuagint used by the early christians included the duetero-canonicals.

and some biblical scholars had theorized that the jewish rejection of the deuteros was because they were unknown in palestine, were only written in greek, etc…finding some of them at Qumran negated those objections…hence the reference to that find in an earlier post…

And the writings within Judaism was fairly fluid before the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad, after that time judaism under went a transformation from Temple worhip and practice to one centered on writings…that post christian era jews rejected writings respected by the church really is not persuasive [though some 1500 years later Luther and others were influenced].

As to what JEsus and theorginal apostles said about the canon … really, much of it was not even written down for them to see and not compiled in one place …

Jesus founded a Church not a Book and instructed Peter and the Apostles to Preach the Word. He did not tell them to write the Good News [Gospel] of Salvation but preach, speak.*

 

[2ndGen]

Read the bottom of my last post. I’ll be happy to answer any of your questions as best I can but I have one condition.

That’s all well and fine, but I’ve been trying to have this question answered for a while now by you. How many times have I had to ask you?

And now you want to jump past it to your questions?

No problem, but I’d like to discuss this point first as I brought it up first.

Now, again;

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

 

[Pwrlftr]

First I believe you are being in accurate to write that Jerome proposed a ‘different’ cannon. He did no such thing. His introductions included brief comments about what the jewish response to the txts would be, not his opinion. He wrote about this in a seperate document .
Jerome rejected the deutero’s and even the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org) says as much as do Catholic apologists such as Gary Michuta.
YADA;3160009:

Second, what do you men by jewish septuagint? the septuagint was a greek translation of hebrew witings and the septuagint used by the early christians included the duetero-canonicals.

To the best of my knowledge the only manuscripts we have of the septuagint are all Christian copies and all date only to the 4th century. Those that believe that an “Alexandrian canon” exists apparently have a hard time supporting this theory with facts such as providing how they know what books such a canon consisted of. Show me the manuscripts!

And the writings within Judaism was fairly fluid before the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad, after that time judaism under went a transformation from Temple worhip and practice to one centered on writings…that post christian era jews rejected writings respected by the church really is not persuasive [though some 1500 years later Luther and others were influenced].

Luther was by no means the first to reject the deuteros. From Melito to Jerome to some of the cardinals at Trent we find rejection of the deuterocanonical books.

Jesus founded a Church not a Book and instructed Peter and the Apostles to Preach the Word. He did not tell them to write the Good News [Gospel] of Salvation but preach, speak.

Well, since scripture is God breathed (according to Paul who was of course writing with the inspiratio nof the Holy Spirit) it must have been in God’s plan to have the scriptures.

 

[Pwrlftr]

That’s all well and fine, but I’ve been trying to have this question answered for a while now by you. How many times have I had to ask you?

And now you want to jump past it to your questions?

No problem, but I’d like to discuss this point first as I brought it up first.

Now, again;

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

Maybe I missed a post but all I remember you asking is who recognized what was and what wasn’t God breathed and I answered that question. Apparently this has lead to another question.

Answer my question first and I’ll answer any thing you ask as best I can.

 

[2ndGen]

Maybe I missed a post but all I remember you asking is who recognized what was and what wasn’t God breathed and I answered that question. Apparently this has lead to another question.

Answer my question first and I’ll answer any thing you ask as best I can.

Yes, you missed it twice.

And it didn’t lead to a new question.

The question is a continuation of that first question. It’s not answer one question then jump to the next one. A dialogue doesn’t take place like that.

So again…

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

 

[2ndGen]

Look P…I’m trying to back you into a theological corner.

Could you just cooperate so that we can get it over with?

Since the Catholic Church created The Holy Bible,
why do you disagree with them now?

 

[Pwrlftr]

Yes, you missed it twice.

And it didn’t lead to a new question.

The question is a continuation of that first question. It’s not answer one question then jump to the next one. A dialogue doesn’t take place like that.

So again…

So if The Catholic Church was chosen by God to decide the canon of Christian Scripture,
why do you decide “now” that their not?

We have a standoff.

Answer my question first and I’ll answer yours. If you choose not to answer it I guess our conversation has ended.

 

[2ndGen]

We have a standoff.

Answer my question first and I’ll answer yours. If you choose not to answer it I guess our conversation has ended.

It would be a standoff if we were on the same topic, but you’re trying to jump onto another topic.

Now, again, I started my topic first.

Then we can go on to your topic.

How can we go on to your topic (which I already forgot because I’m too busy debating about what the topic is besides debating the topic) if we haven’t finished mine?

We have a question avoidance here.