Sister is planning on divorce

[dje101]

…and yet where have you been for the past 11 years? It seems a bit late in the game for you to be jumping in, you know. Even you admit it has been 11 very long years for her…but only now you’re riding in to tell her (basically) that she’s doing it wrong? Do you really think she’s NOT thinking of her kids? The fact that she stuck it out this long says just the opposite…and my personal guess would be that she’s seeing that his continued whatever-is-going-on is harming the kids. So at the very least, getting them out of an obviously dysfunctional environment is an important step. He wants to work it out? Let him show, on his own, that he’s ready for change and willing to walk the walk for a year or so…without exposing the kids to daily harm. Then maybe she can take him back.

BTW, I don’t believe Catholicism opposes divorce. Just the remarriage thing. So she’s not wrong, even by your own faith, to take action to ensure a safe, happy, healthy environment for her children as well as for herself.

I’ve wanted to talk to her husband for quite some time, but every time I wanted to, I was told by my family to stay out of their relationship. I guess that’s what I’m supposed to do now too…

And I’m not riding in to tell her she’s doing it wrong. I wanted to encourage her to try working on things, just for a few months at least

 

[KnitNut]

I’ve wanted to talk to her husband for quite some time, but every time I wanted to, I was told by my family to stay out of their relationship. I guess that’s what I’m supposed to do now too…

And I’m not riding in to tell her she’s doing it wrong. I wanted to encourage her to try working on things, just for a few months at least

There’s no problem with her doing both, frankly. Divorces aren’t granted overnight. By separating, and filing, she makes it extremely clear what is on the line. She protects the kids, establishes means to support herself and maintain healthy routines for the kids…and she can still participate in counseling or whatever. The divorce action can be withdrawn at any time up until it’s final…so there’s no harm in pursuing both paths to protect herself.

 

[1ke]

I wanted to show her that, young or not, the divorce could still negatively effect her children in the long run.

Yes, please do share that with your sister, because it’s accurate.

The book The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce is excellent.

My parents divorced when I was 4. At 48, I can still see the scars peek out from time to time (or, yeah, all the time), even after working really hard on all my issues from the divorce for many years.

Because it’s not just the divorce. It’s the entire aftermath that lasts through your childhood into adulthood and never stops touching your life.

 

[Xantippe]

…and yet where have you been for the past 11 years? It seems a bit late in the game for you to be jumping in, you know. Even you admit it has been 11 very long years for her…but only now you’re riding in to tell her (basically) that she’s doing it wrong?

**That is a really excellent point.

If you haven’t been there all along for your sister, encouraging her to stand up for herself and the kids, you don’t have a lot of standing here.**

So at the very least, getting them out of an obviously dysfunctional environment is an important step. He wants to work it out? Let him show, on his own, that he’s ready for change and willing to walk the walk for a year or so…without exposing the kids to daily harm. Then maybe she can take him back.

**I don’t know that it is “daily harm” from what the OP describes. It sounds like he’s just kind of not there (rather than there being a high-conflict situation), but yeah, it is on him to demonstrate that he is going to walk the walk.

I’m not up on current research, but as I recall, there’s a big difference in outcomes between low-conflict and high-conflict unhappy marriages. Kids suffer in high-conflict unhappy marriages, but do better in low-conflict unhappy marriages than in divorced families. But I wouldn’t necessarily share that info with sis, as she probably isn’t up for an unhappy low-conflict marriage. **

 

[Regina7]

I’m kinda shocked by how many people say to do nothing or leave it to the therapist.

As Christians, we are called to perform spiritual acts of mercy. This includes trying to guide a person away from sin. Too many people today are cowards and hide under “I don’t want to offend.” It’s our DUTY to speak the truth, and if someone gets offended, too bad.

OP, you have an obligation to speak to your sister and will be held accountable if you choose not to. As others have suggested, your sister is likely divorcing based on emotions, not logic. So appeal to her emotions- ask her questions. I’m guessing that, at this point, facts and statistics won’t sway her emotions.

Good luck!

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not implying that I know everything, and I apologize to everyone if it came across that way.

All I was going to do was encourage her to actually give the marriage counseling a try. She and my family are making light of her choice to have a divorce and I don’t think they are thinking of her children. My sister sent me a picture of a “divorce party cake”, and when my wife, mother and I were discussing birthday party plans for my sister, my mother told my wife that she should plan my sister’s divorce party. They are making lite of this and I while I know my sister has had it rough for quite some time, she also hasn’t actually given this marriage counseling a try nor is she going to it to actually work on marriage. Its just so he will “come to a realization that a divorce will happen”. I am just going to encourage her to actually give it a shot for the sake of her kids.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you thought you knew everything. I meant to caution you that if you are not very careful, your sister will choose to believe that you think that way. If she does, you won’t get through to her. You are walking into a field full of land mines.

I have had good luck with this tactic when talking with people in the same situation: that is, a situation where the person has come to feel that the status quo simply cannot be carried on any more.

a) She needs to give counselling her best effort because even if she and her husband divorce, she will be parenting with him for a lifetime. As I have often told my young relatives: You can divorce a spouse, but an ex is forever. If she wants to continue to do a good job as a mother, she has to find a way to communicate and work effectively with their father. There is no getting around that, because “not being there for her” is unlikely to be a reason for her husband to lose his parental rights.

b) She needs to give counselling her best effort because she needs to understand how she got into this marriage and how things got to this point. People who do not do this too often find themselves in a very similar marriage the next time around. At that point, one of two things happen. The first is that they wind up divorced again because they did not learn what they needed to learn from their first failed attempt at marriage, not even the second time around. The second is that they do the work to make that marriage work, only to realize that they could have undoubtedly saved their first marriage if they had learned these lessons about themselves and how they see others before they chose their first divorce.

It is very important that she learn in depth a) whether or not her marriage could work or could have worked, b) why, and c) what part of all of that lay in her choices, attitudes, and perceptions and what part lay in factors beyond her control but within her capacity to recognize, once she knew what to look for.

That is the information she is most likely to see as good reasons to do the work of counselling diligently, even though her emotions tell her to run away from this marriage as fast as possible.

 

[dje101]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you thought you knew everything. I meant to caution you that if you are not very careful, your sister will choose to believe that you think that way. If she does, you won’t get through to her. You are walking into a field full of land mines.

I have had good luck with this tactic when talking with people in the same situation: that is, a situation where the person has come to feel that the status quo simply cannot be carried on any more.

a) She needs to give counselling her best effort because even if she and her husband divorce, she will be parenting with him for a lifetime. As I have often told my young relatives: You can divorce a spouse, but an ex is forever. If she wants to continue to do a good job as a mother, she has to find a way to communicate and work effectively with their father. There is no getting around that, because “not being there for her” is unlikely to be a reason for her husband to lose his parental rights.

b) She needs to give counselling her best effort because she needs to understand how she got into this marriage and how things got to this point. People who do not do this too often find themselves in a very similar marriage the next time around. At that point, one of two things happen. The first is that they wind up divorced again because they did not learn what they needed to learn from their first failed attempt at marriage, not even the second time around. The second is that they do the work to make that marriage work, only to realize that they could have undoubtedly saved their first marriage if they had learned these lessons about themselves and how they see others before they chose their first divorce.

It is very important that she learn in depth a) whether or not her marriage could work or could have worked, b) why, and c) what part of all of that lay in her choices, attitudes, and perceptions and what part lay in factors beyond her control but within her capacity to recognize, once she knew what to look for.

That is the information she is most likely to see as good reasons to do the work of counselling diligently, even though her emotions tell her to run away from this marriage as fast as possible.

Thank you for your post of guidance. This is what I was hoping for from this group, rather than people just telling me to “keep my mouth shut”, that it won’t do anything (which is probably the case, I understand this), or asking for an update on my “magical words”.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you for your post of guidance. This is what I was hoping for from this group, rather than people just telling me to “keep my mouth shut”, that it won’t do anything (which is probably the case, I understand this), or asking for an update on my “magical words”.

I am sorry I offended you. I hope things go well for you with this issue. Let us know.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

There’s no problem with her doing both, frankly. Divorces aren’t granted overnight. By separating, and filing, she makes it extremely clear what is on the line. She protects the kids, establishes means to support herself and maintain healthy routines for the kids…and she can still participate in counseling or whatever. The divorce action can be withdrawn at any time up until it’s final…so there’s no harm in pursuing both paths to protect herself.

A firm no to the bolded if there is no physical or sexual abuse present. Children are nearly always better off with the father in the house even if the marriage needs work, as this one does.

Yes, please do share that with your sister, because it’s accurate.

The book The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce is excellent.

My parents divorced when I was 4. At 48, I can still see the scars peek out from time to time (or, yeah, all the time), even after working really hard on all my issues from the divorce for many years.

Because it’s not just the divorce. It’s the entire aftermath that lasts through your childhood into adulthood and never stops touching your life.

I know many like 1ke … My parents staying together has always been a great blessing in my life. When I hear stories about growing up in broken families, I always thank God for my parents’ perseverance. So when people say “for the good of the children”, I always question that. Absent physical or sexual abuse, children need to have their fathers in the house. Even bad fathers are usually better than no fathers at all.

… She needs to give counselling her best effort …

This. Yet she may still have her mind made up and won’t want to give her husband a chance to make up lost ground. Which is her making it all about herself, not her children.

I don’t think it’s been said whether she brought her issues to her husband long before this. If she stayed quiet for 11 years and only started bringing it up in the last few months, he’s going to feel sandbagged. If he wants to hang in there, she may say “just for the children”. That’s okay, it’s a start.

Another unspoken aspect to this is that when extended families weren’t so scattered, there was a safety valve of sorts when the respective parties could get emotional support from their families and that helped them hang in there. Now we get families that say, none of your business, let them go! That’s a real change and not for the betterment of the children. So the desire on the OP’s part to talk to her sister is to be nurtured. She may not be successful, but at least she tried.

As always, I will pray for their children.

 

[kptrs]

I’m sorry, but do you really think it’s your place to say anything at all? As others have said, you don’t necessarily know the entire story. It might be worse than you think it is, and there may be legitimate grounds for divorce (as long as neither of them remarry without an annulment). If the marriage is really bad, the parents staying together may actually be worse for the children than getting a divorce. Divorce is bad for kids, but having married parents who fight all the time and are generally unhappy with each other is bad for kids, too. Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. I’m not advocating divorce, I’m just thinking you may be overstepping your bounds.

 

[dje101]

I am sorry I offended you. I hope things go well for you with this issue. Let us know.

I wasn’t offended, I don’t offend easily. Its simply that, of the times that I’ve asked for advice or guidance here, this is the first time that I’ve been met some nonconstructive comments like that and I was a little disheartened. But I realize we are all human. I’ve certainly had my share of quotes I wish I hadn’t said. I just ask that you pray for me is all.

She called me and asked to meet me for coffee this afternoon, so I’ll be seeing her a lot sooner than I had anticipated. While I disagree with many here that I should just stay quiet, I definitely agree that I should rethink my technique. My sister and I have very good and open lines of communication and she knows that I love her and only want the best for her. I will be listening and supportive while trying to gently encourage her to make an effort with the marriage counseling.

 

[dje101]

A firm no to the bolded if there is no physical or sexual abuse present. Children are nearly always better off with the father in the house even if the marriage needs work, as this one does.

I know many like 1ke … My parents staying together has always been a great blessing in my life. When I hear stories about growing up in broken families, I always thank God for my parents’ perseverance. So when people say “for the good of the children”, I always question that. Absent physical or sexual abuse, children need to have their fathers in the house. Even bad fathers are usually better than no fathers at all.

This. Yet she may still have her mind made up and won’t want to give her husband a chance to make up lost ground. Which is her making it all about herself, not her children.

I don’t think it’s been said whether she brought her issues to her husband long before this. If she stayed quiet for 11 years and only started bringing it up in the last few months, he’s going to feel sandbagged. If he wants to hang in there, she may say “just for the children”. That’s okay, it’s a start.

Another unspoken aspect to this is that when extended families weren’t so scattered, there was a safety valve of sorts when the respective parties could get emotional support from their families and that helped them hang in there. Now we get families that say, none of your business, let them go! That’s a real change and not for the betterment of the children.** So the desire on the OP’s part to talk to her sister is to be nurtured. She may not be successful, but at least she tried**.

As always, I will pray for their children.

Thank you for this.

And we’re brother and sister!

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for your post of guidance. This is what I was hoping for from this group, rather than people just telling me to “keep my mouth shut”, that it won’t do anything (which is probably the case, I understand this), or asking for an update on my “magical words”.

"You have spent 11 years with Brad with a lot of unhappiness because you either didn’t know what you needed from him, didn’t know how to say it, didn’t know where to turn for help in getting through to him, or didn’t know how to come to a conclusion about whether your marriage to him could even work or not. That is a long time, and a big investment of your life.

“You have an opportunity to learn a lot about yourself and a lot about Brad, and it is information you are going to need, because of Bobby and Whitney, if nothing else, but also because you can’t afford any more of a marriage like this–I mean not just not to Brad, but also not to the next man you might decide to marry. People so often divorce and then remarry into a relationship with either all the same problems or all the opposite problems, because they don’t do the work required to understand their first marriages. Marriage counselors see it all the time. You are going to thank yourself if you get everything out of this counselling that you possibly can.”

Now, it is of course OK to raise the hope that she and Brad can come to an understanding and actually realize the marriage she hoped to have on the day she married, to say that divorce is very hard on children, hard on the people who divorce, and hard on their finances. Those things are all true–it isn’t for nothing that people’s health often takes a serious turn for the worse during the time they’re going through a divorce and right after they divorce. The main thing is to let her know that you totally understand that she can’t take any more of what is wrong with her marriage and may have taken more than she can take already. Support her contention that the status quo is intolerable, and let her know that you have good hope that she can find the best way through this. She really needs to believe that and needs to believe that you believe that, too.

By the way, I learned all this from a fellow who had finally gotten his second marriage right. He told me that he regretted very much that he almost ran a second marriage into the ditch before realizing that the first marriage could have worked, if he’d only understood the roots of the problems with it and had not been too proud to accept the knowledge of what he could have done differently. The first person I told about this was ready to leave his wife for his “soul mate.” He decided that he did need to figure out what went wrong with his first marriage before jumping into a second relationship. He and his wife are still together, they are much happier than they were before, and it is about 20 years later now. The advice has not helped everyone I know escape divorce, but the feedback is that it helped them profit much more from the unfortunate experience of having to go through one. It is much like Dr. Phil’s advice: *You should not get divorced until you earn your way out. *

 

[Xantippe]

a) She needs to give counselling her best effort because even if she and her husband divorce, she will be parenting with him for a lifetime. As I have often told my young relatives: You can divorce a spouse, but an ex is forever.

**Yes. And this extends well into adulthood–graduations, weddings, births of grandchildren–if he is at all involved in the kids’ lives, she will have to play nice with him FOREVER. **

If she wants to continue to do a good job as a mother, she has to find a way to communicate and work effectively with their father. There is no getting around that, because “not being there for her” is unlikely to be a reason for her husband to lose his parental rights.

**Right. He’s going to get the kids at least part of the time. Can he take care of their clothes? Can he feed them? Can he do bedtime? Can he take care of both of them at the same time? Does he know their schedule? Does he know how much or what kind of Tylenol to give them when feverish? If he’s as lousy a dad as has been described, the answer is no–but he’ll still get them part of the time, and then what? Bad stuff, that’s what.

Also, bear in mind that in the playbook of lousy things lousy divorced dads do, one of the first plays is, “Find human female with a pulse and move her in as fast as possible to do all the dirty kid work.” This human female with a pulse may not actually like children, and she’s going to be the one caring for your sister’s children and dealing with toddler infractions. Again what happens then? Bad stuff.

(I’m not saying that all divorced dads are lousy or they all do that, but the insta-stepmom is a very popular move among lousy divorced fathers.) **

b) She needs to give counselling her best effort because she needs to understand how she got into this marriage and how things got to this point. People who do not do this too often find themselves in a very similar marriage the next time around. At that point, one of two things happen. The first is that they wind up divorced again because they did not learn what they needed to learn from their first failed attempt at marriage, not even the second time around. The second is that they do the work to make that marriage work, only to realize that they could have undoubtedly saved their first marriage if they had learned these lessons about themselves and how they see others before they chose their first divorce.

**Yes.
**

 

[Xantippe]

A firm no to the bolded if there is no physical or sexual abuse present. Children are nearly always better off with the father in the house even if the marriage needs work, as this one does.

I believe the social science on this (and I believe this is in the Wallerstein book) is that a low-conflict unhappy marriage is better for children than divorce long-term, but that a high-conflict unhappy marriage is worse for children than divorce.

 

[Kelfa28]

I believe the social science on this (and I believe this is in the Wallerstein book) is that a low-conflict unhappy marriage is better for children than divorce long-term, but that a high-conflict unhappy marriage is worse for children than divorce.

This is very true.

The parents should make every effort to try to save their marriage…even if it’s just for the sake of the children.
However, some marriages are truly not salvageable and are better for all parties involved…especially the children…that a couple divorces.

Highly toxic marriages are just as damaging to children as divorce is.

My husband was the product of a very dysfunctional and toxic marriage. He remembers being 12 and actually relieved that his parents were divorcing.
He knew the constant fighting, manipulation and substance abuse would stop (or at least he could avoid it by living with the non-alcoholic).

He said it only got bad when his parents decided to date and bring other SOs into his life.

Remarriage is extremely toxic too.

 

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post

a) She needs to give counselling her best effort because even if she and her husband divorce, she will be parenting with him for a lifetime. As I have often told my young relatives: You can divorce a spouse, but an ex is forever.

**Yes. And this extends well into adulthood–graduations, weddings, births of grandchildren–if he is at all involved in the kids’ lives, she will have to play nice with him FOREVER. **

If she wants to continue to do a good job as a mother, she has to find a way to communicate and work effectively with their father. There is no getting around that, because “not being there for her” is unlikely to be a reason for her husband to lose his parental rights.

**Right. He’s going to get the kids at least part of the time. Can he take care of their clothes? Can he feed them? Can he do bedtime? Can he take care of both of them at the same time? Does he know their schedule? Does he know how much or what kind of Tylenol to give them when feverish? If he’s as lousy a dad as has been described, the answer is no–but he’ll still get them part of the time, and then what? Bad stuff, that’s what. **

**Also, bear in mind that in the playbook of lousy things lousy divorced dads do, one of the first plays is, “Find human female with a pulse and move her in as fast as possible to do all the dirty kid work.” This human female with a pulse may not actually like children, and she’s going to be the one caring for your sister’s children and dealing with toddler infractions. Again what happens then? Bad stuff.

(I’m not saying that all divorced dads are lousy or they all do that, but the insta-stepmom is a very popular move among lousy divorced fathers.) **

b) She needs to give counselling her best effort because she needs to understand how she got into this marriage and how things got to this point. People who do not do this too often find themselves in a very similar marriage the next time around. At that point, one of two things happen. The first is that they wind up divorced again because they did not learn what they needed to learn from their first failed attempt at marriage, not even the second time around. The second is that they do the work to make that marriage work, only to realize that they could have undoubtedly saved their first marriage if they had learned these lessons about themselves and how they see others before they chose their first divorce.

Yes.

Yes, the OP’s sister will eventually need to accept that her children, the kind of adults that her by-then ex-husband chooses to expose them to, and when he gets to have them will be entirely beyond her control at least some of the time. That is, unfortunately, not likely to be a consideration that keeps her in a dreadful marriage. When you have your hand slammed into a door, you’ll gladly take on a lot of theoretical “bad stuff,” if only it will get your hand free from all that pain and that total restriction of movement.

The OP’s first order of business is to say, “You say you have your hand slammed in a door–I believe you. I want to help you get free of that pain.” Only after listening should he venture to say that perhaps the habits within the marriage and not the entire marriage itself that were causing the pain, and perhaps divorce is not the most desirable course to fix the problem. First, though, express a belief that the report of suffering is as real, as serious, and as intolerable as the sister says that it is. Otherwise, don’t expect to be allowed at bedside for this ailment.

 

[underacloud]

I believe the social science on this (and I believe this is in the Wallerstein book) is that a low-conflict unhappy marriage is better for children than divorce long-term, but that a high-conflict unhappy marriage is worse for children than divorce.

Yes, and this seems to be the sort of choice the OP’s sister is facing.

I think 1ke and a few others have emphasied the important point that children are the ones who truly suffer in divorce, and often they don’t have any real advocate in the process (other than a family court judge). I certainly feel it is appropriate for dje101 to take on the role of advocate for these children at this stage in the process. As pointed out, he needs to tread carefully and gently, but I think it’s right to talk to his siter about these concerns.

 

[silver_moon]

This is very true.

The parents should make every effort to try to save their marriage…even if it’s just for the sake of the children.
However, some marriages are truly not salvageable and are better for all parties involved…especially the children…that a couple divorces.

Highly toxic marriages are just as damaging to children as divorce is.

My husband was the product of a very dysfunctional and toxic marriage. He remembers being 12 and actually relieved that his parents were divorcing.
He knew the constant fighting, manipulation and substance abuse would stop (or at least he could avoid it by living with the non-alcoholic).

He said it only got bad when his parents decided to date and bring other SOs into his life.

Remarriage is extremely toxic too.

Yes I’ve heard that too from someone who has been there. I think there is a grey area/overlap between high conflict marriages with a lot of fighting and destruction of property, and actual domestic violence. Even if domestic violence does not occur, repeated loud fights where household items are thrown, etc. is damaging to kids. I don’t know how often this happens but in the one case I heard of, divorce was a real relief. Alcoholism was involved as well and the custodial parent stayed single long enough to be stable for the kids.

 

[dje101]

Hello everyone,

I thought I’d do a quick update. I did not go through with my original plan. I just listened to what my sister had to say when we discussed things, politely and subtly encouraged her to continue the couples counseling, and overall reinforced to her that I love her and simply want the best for her.

She is going through with the divorce, and the husband is showing his true colors: he’s simply not a good person, and doesn’t understand how to love anyone but himself. They’ve only just started the separation process a couple weeks ago and he has already started an account on a dating website and has gone out on a date.

Divorce is a sad thing because it is a family being torn apart, but I have to say, I’m glad that she won’t have to put up with his insults anymore, and that the kids won’t learn anymore from him, because he obviously doesn’t know how to be even a decent husband or father.

That’s pretty much it. Keep us all in your prayers, please.