Sister's abortion approval draws automatic excommunication

[byrdisawerd]

Murder is murder. She will receive her eternal judgement soon enough. May God have mercy on these abortionists.

Yeah, murder is murder but different from abortion. If you really believe in a judgmental God, you’ll leave the judging up to Him and not worry about it yourself.

If you’ll think about ethics for a moment, you’ll see that there is no easy way out. You can’t simply ignore the right to life the mother has and her right to control what happens medically to her body. You can’t simply dust your hands off and declare “case closed” when it has no implications on you other than appeasing your church group.

 

[catharina]

I do not know WHICH women are contracepting, but Statistically speaking the family sizes for the Parish should be different then the 2-3 Children per couple we have. I have a VERY liberal Priest, and I have NEVER heard any condemnation from the pulpit on this topic.

Now maybe the men are using too, but since men would rather females use the pill instead of them use the Condoms, although I could be mistaken (But I doubt it), I again make a life view comment that most of the women are on the pill.

The younger Catholics I know use the pill or get fixed…I talked to a young man today who says he is Catholic… His wife is having a C section on the 23rd and will have her tubes tied. I will continue to talk to him about it, but we are not a Parish of the Duggers…and NFP is not a topic of discussion… simple observation Cathrina…

Unfortunately our Pews are not FULL…

Based on your own limited observations you have drawn a certain conclusion.
Your observations are limited and your knowledge of the intimate relations
of others are even more limited. NFP is used by many couples and yet never
discussed with other parishoners unless/until others seek to learn about it.

Some families are smaller as a result of NFP - and who are we to judge others?

 

[catharina]

Yeah, murder is murder but different from abortion. If you really believe in a judgmental God, you’ll leave the judging up to Him and not worry about it yourself.

If you’ll think about ethics for a moment, you’ll see that there is no easy way out. You can’t simply ignore the right to life the mother has and her right to control what happens medically to her body. You can’t simply dust your hands off and declare “case closed” when it has no implications on you other than appeasing your church group.

I was about to say that Catholics depend on Divine revelation (Scripture and Tradition)
to form moral choices in our lives. In fact, we consider the forbidden nature of abortion
to be a law of Almighty God. So - I’ve said all of that anyway, although I noticed
that you call yourself an apostate, so even you know you have forsaken your faith.

Abortion is murder.
No more needs to be said.

 

[Rence]

If you’ll think about ethics for a moment, you’ll see that there is no easy way out. You can’t simply ignore the right to life the mother has and her right to control what happens medically to her body. You can’t simply dust your hands off and declare “case closed” when it has no implications on you other than appeasing your church group.

I agree with you because the ethics committee was involved and all involved were in support of the abortion to save the woman’s life. Legally speaking, they could have (and probably would have) gotten sued if the woman died in their care if they abandoned her when she wanted to procedure and the doctors made the prognosis and treatment recommendation. I can’t see why they wouldn’t have just transferred her elsewhere for the appropriate treatment, unless they weren’t sure she would make it. There’s nothing they could have done without risking a lawsuit for neglect. So unfortunately, it was a bad situation all the way around for anyone involved in her care.

 

[catharina]

I agree with you because the ethics committee was involved and all involved were in support of the abortion to save the woman’s life. Legally speaking, they could have (and probably would have) gotten sued if the woman died in their care if they abandoned her when she wanted to procedure and the doctors made the prognosis and treatment recommendation. I can’t see why they wouldn’t have just transferred her elsewhere for the appropriate treatment, unless they weren’t sure she would make it. There’s nothing they could have done without risking a lawsuit for neglect. So unfortunately, it was a bad situation all the way around for anyone involved in her care.

Yes - and so what?
Related to many doctors and many lawyers, I still can NEVER accept such a motive.
Neither could my relatives, male and female.

(Glad though to see you’ve come around to
“maybe they should have transferred her.” Doh.)

 

[byrdisawerd]

I was about to say that Catholics depend on Divine revelation (Scripture and Tradition)
to form moral choices in our lives. In fact, we consider the forbidden nature of abortion
to be a law of Almighty God. So - I’ve said all of that anyway, although I noticed
that you call yourself an apostate, so even you know you have forsaken your faith.

Abortion is murder.
No more needs to be said.

Closing the doors to alternate opinions are we? In this case, not performing abortion is murder (or at the very least a violation of the hippocratic oath). This Sister of the Catholic Church saw the moral quandary and did what is right. You’re saying that one life is worth more than an another, because your misogynistic priest claims it is the law of God, who cannot be bothered to come down here and proclaim it himself. Instead he speaks through misogynistic priests who get to the privilege of telling us what God thinks, because God couldn’t be bothered to tell us himself, even though we’re supposed to individually pray to him.

How about we give ourselves a little credit and form our own moral choices instead of relying on someone who can’t verify that they hear the voice of God. You hear your own voice in your heart. Let it speak. Don’t let yourself be spoken for.

And of course, according to you, I have no credibility, because I have “forsaken” my faith. Since I no longer take reality from a point of view presented to me by those who wish to distort it for their own benefit, I am a pariah. No, no no, we’re not free thinkers, we’re pariahs. That makes it easier for you to swallow the simple little moral pills that are given you without having to question or think for yourself.

11:05 CDT - Copied and pasted for the record when CAF deletes this record of free thought.

 

[catharina]

Closing the doors to alternate opinions are we? In this case, not performing abortion is murder (or at the very least a violation of the hippocratic oath). This Sister of the Catholic Church saw the moral quandary and did what is right. You’re saying that one life is worth more than an another, because your misogynistic priest claims it is the law of God, who cannot be bothered to come down here and proclaim it himself.

**Golly, hope you don’t mind if I skip the following rant that is the rest of your post.
What I’m saying, what the Church says, is that NEITHER life is worthless.
Each life is sacred, a gift from God, and one cannot be slaughtered to save the other.

Now about your other issues? Whatever. Good luck with that.**

Instead he speaks through misogynistic priests who get to the privilege of telling us what God thinks, because God couldn’t be bothered to tell us himself, even though we’re supposed to individually pray to him.

How about we give ourselves a little credit and form our own moral choices instead of relying on someone who can’t verify that they hear the voice of God. You hear your own voice in your heart. Let it speak. Don’t let yourself be spoken for.

And of course, according to you, I have no credibility, because I have “forsaken” my faith. Since I no longer take reality from a point of view presented to me by those who wish to distort it for their own benefit, I am a pariah. No, no no, we’re not free thinkers, we’re pariahs. That makes it easier for you to swallow the simple little moral pills that are given you without having to question or think for yourself.

11:05 CDT - Copied and pasted for the record when CAF deletes this record of free thought.

PS - rein in your paranoia. CA does not delete posts. Oh, and welcome.

 

[byrdisawerd]

catharina : If neither life is worthless, can you explain why the Church has taken a stance against the mother’s life in favour of a life which cannot sustain itself without the mother? Why is a nun being punished for standing up for a woman’s life?

Paranoia? It’s not like I believe I will be eternally and infinitely punished after I die for finite sins.

 

[catharina]

catharina : If neither life is worthless, can you explain why the Church has taken a stance against the mother’s life in favour of a life which cannot sustain itself without the mother? Why is a nun being punished for standing up for a woman’s life?

Paranoia? It’s not like I believe I will be eternally and infinitely punished after I die for finite sins.

Re “paranoia?” read your previous post.
You seem to indulging in an imaginary fight with the Church.

Now the ISSUE.

Both lives have equal worth.
God forbids killing one to “save” the other.
The Church takse NO stand AGAINST either life.

The sister earned her excommuincation by approving an abortion.
She had the power to prevent it - being the ‘admin’ nun at a Catholic hospital.

Really simple.

 

[Soutane]

And most importantly she repented,realizing that she had erred and as previous posters with medical backgrounds(unlike you-yes)have stated that hypertension or its equivalent is not medically sound reasoning for aborting a perfectly healthy child.If you were to talk to that nun now she would tell you that she made a dreadful error in judgement by acquiesing to the murder of this human being therefore blowing your contention of the righteounesss of her act right out of the water.

You go worship the god that you see in your bathroom mirror or the god of current thought or the god of relativism or the god of convenience and we’ll worship the God of hard and uncompromising Truth-you know the One that gave the Serrmon on the Mount 2000 years ago,and the Beatitudes and you might have heard of the Guy who was tortured to death on a cross for your sins and mine.How old are you,18-25?I’ll stack my Church’s ethics against yours anyday.

Your simplistic arguementation and lack of cogent debating skills are insufferably boring.May I suggest that you look around Catholic Answers at its tremendous resources and observe some reasoned debate prior to returning here and embarrassing yourself further?God be with you and may He teach you some humility.

 

[catharina]

And most importantly she repented,realizing that she had erred and as previous posters with medical backgrounds(unlike you-yes)have stated that hypertension or its equivalent is not medically sound reasoning for aborting a perfectly healthy child.If you were to talk to that nun now she would tell you that she made a dreadful error in judgement by acquiesing to the murder of this human being therefore blowing your contention of the righteounesss of her act right out of the water.

You go worship the god that you see in your bathroom mirror or the god of current thought or the god of relativism or the god of convenience and we’ll worship the God of hard and uncompromising Truth-you know the One that gave the Serrmon on the Mount 2000 years ago,and the Beatitudes and you might have heard of the Guy who was tortured to death on a cross for your sins and mine.How old are you,18-25?I’ll stack my Church’s ethics against yours anyday.

Your simplistic arguementation and lack of cogent debating skills are insufferably boring.May I suggest that you look around Catholic Answers at its tremendous resources and observe some reasoned debate prior to returning here and embarrassing yourself further?God be with you and may He teach you some humility.

Soutane? Again, I’m sure you’re not addressing me - but it LOOKS like you are. ???

 

[Soutane]

Soutane? Again, I’m sure you’re not addressing me - but it LOOKS like you are. ???

OY! no catharina,I certainly am not.I passionately agree with your posts it isbyrdsaword,most definitely not you.I’ve just gotten a new laptop and it seems to do things on its own.I would never deign to lecture you,ever.Just the new chap who is a tad overconfident and will get his ears pinned back metaphorically if he continues with his simplistic style of arguementation,.

 

[Lypher]

**

Based on your own limited observations you have drawn a certain conclusion.

**

**I do not believe I stated the depth of my observations. However I will admit that I listen to Catholic Answers and :irish2atrick has led me down this path saying that far too many Catholics are Contracepting as well as using NFP incorrectly. I then took this information and looked at my empty pews, asked questions of people around my age and made some conclusions. Again just my Liberal Parish…although the pews are pretty empty like CA alludes is the condition throughout the country. **

**

Your observations are limited

**

You Judged me. But that’s OK by me… :knight1:

**

and your knowledge of the intimate relations of others are even more limited.

**

**:blackeye:Ouch, I did not know I was so ignorant…or is this another guess or judgement you have made? **

**

NFP is used by many couples and yet never discussed with other parishoners unless/until others seek to learn about it.

**

Even if used by a significant number our pews are empty:bighanky:…and people should know that NFP is not to be used as a substitute for the Pill :tsktsk:, dire needs, spacing, this is all suppossed to be only temporary. It is only suppossed to be used under controlled conditions… we are suppossed to be giving to life and not selfish…:heaven: CCC 2368…Now we are not suppossed to judge individuals to motives without confirmation from the person, but we can judge the impact to the Church.:hammering:

**

Some families are smaller as a result of NFP -

**

Again our pews are TOO empty…When this Lutheran Convert has more children then most something is wrong in Denmark and if they are using NFP in a not giving manner it is just another form of Contraception…maybe worse as it smells of someone trying to cheat…:sad_yes:

 

[Lypher]

and who are we to judge others?

That is not correct…the judgment is made by the magisterium, simple Church authority. It is interesting to me, this Lutheran convert, that often times when someone points out that a Catholic is drifting away from Church teaching that the person doing the correcting is called Judgemental…The CCC is pretty clear on this…**
**
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

**1869 **Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144

1873* The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. the kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

1874 To choose deliberately** *- that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

144 John Paul II, RP 16.

With the above said. I have done my part to point out to you that until my Priest tells me to stop abiding by the CCC if I find some area that someone is teaching or acting against Church teaching I am REQUIRED to point out that it is wrong. You will, or will not accept this. I believe I am charged in **1868 **to make sure that others know… Now it is up to you to accept this in the spirit that it is given. :angel1: Or you can try and slam me. I hope you will understand that I believe that abortion and contraception, including the misuse of NFP, is intrinsically evil……

In the end….our pews are not full…:bighanky:……and a lot of my observations are based on seeds planted by CA’s :irish3atrick Coffin, maybe he is wrong, but if so then why am I here? Or more importantly why is he here?

I sincerely hope you have a nice morning…CIAO…

 

[catharina]

That is not correct…the judgment is made by the magisterium, simple Church authority. It is interesting to me, this Lutheran convert, that often times when someone points out that a Catholic is drifting away from Church teaching that the person doing the correcting is called Judgemental…The CCC is pretty clear on this…**
**
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

**1869 **Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. "Structures of sin" are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a "social sin."144

1873* The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. the kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.

1874 To choose deliberately** *- that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

144 John Paul II, RP 16.

With the above said. I have done my part to point out to you that until my Priest tells me to stop abiding by the CCC if I find some area that someone is teaching or acting against Church teaching I am REQUIRED to point out that it is wrong. You will, or will not accept this. I believe I am charged in **1868 **to make sure that others know… Now it is up to you to accept this in the spirit that it is given. :angel1: Or you can try and slam me. I hope you will understand that I believe that abortion and contraception, including the misuse of NFP, is intrinsically evil……

In the end….our pews are not full…:bighanky:……and a lot of my observations are based on seeds planted by CA’s :irish3atrick Coffin, maybe he is wrong, but if so then why am I here? Or more importantly why is he here?

I sincerely hope you have a nice morning…CIAO…

Wow. You have spun off into some other world.
I said you can’t assume contraception by looking at small families in your parish.
You said NFP is not to be used as contraception. Correct. It is not.
However, NFP IS USED and it can and often does result in smaller families.
The reasons? Perhaps as multiple and varied as the people who use it.

Your take after me for lecturing you. Excuse me? You are the one who lectures.
You seem to hold quite dearly an attitude that leads you to criticize other -
based only on your assumptions. I’ve no idea what Patrick Coffin has recorded and
you have heard regarding this subject. It is irrelevant. I certainly know Church Teaching
and have fully supported it for 64 yrs.

I’m saying to you: it’s unwise to assume about others - much less to declare ‘it is so.’
Your assumptions are YOUR assumptions.

So again when you state:
"… . There I sit waiting to partake of the Eucharist until I get confimed and MOST of the women in the pews are contracepting…

then I say:
"How in the world would you know such a thing?"
Easy, honest answer: you wouldn’t. In fact, you couldn’t.

 

[Lypher]

Wow. You have spun off into some other world…

Possibly, I have been known to do that…

I said you can’t assume contraception by looking at small families in your parish.

They are ALL small, I have one of the larger…it is not statistically correct…

You said NFP is not to be used as contraception. Correct. It is not. However, NFP IS USED and it can and often does result in smaller families.
The reasons? Perhaps as multiple and varied as the people who use it…

Again statistically our parish looks like my Lutheran Church, except it has FEWER children…

Your take after me for lecturing you. Excuse me? You are the one who lectures…

I bet if you started a thread with a vote on that you might find others do not agree. It is possible, but highly unlikely I KNOW I don’t know a LOT…You on the other hand KNOW you know a lot…just ask yourself…(I am teasing…don’t get too upset now)

You seem to hold quite dearly an attitude that leads you to criticize other - .

If that is true I Apologize. The last thing I want to do is to come off as some kind of Know it all, as everyday of my life I learn just how much I do NOT know…I figure by the time I am your age I will most assuredly know that I know next to nothing and yet I will know far more then I do today.

based only on your assumptions. I’ve no idea what Patrick Coffin has recorded and you have heard regarding this subject. It is irrelevant. I certainly know Church Teaching and have fully supported it for 64 yrs. .

Well then you know that we are charged to point out sin when we see it, without Judging the sinner…I try not to do that…I don’t know what is in their hearts, where they have lived or what they have witnessed when comments are made on these extremely non scientific threads. As far as your age goes. Like Ronald Reagan said I won’t hold your lack of age or wisdom against you…I know you are still young, but your learning like the rest of us young young people and your knowledge will increase with more age. Just like the taste of fine wine improves with age, or cheese if you don’t like wine…

I’m saying to you: it’s unwise to assume about others - much less to declare ‘it is so.’ .

That is a MOST positively TRUE statement. I could not agree more. Assuming about particular people is pretty wrong, making statements about conditions or statistical anomalies I think are pretty safe.

Your assumptions are YOUR assumptions…

Thank you for giving them back to me…(Having fun…)

So again when you state:
"… . There I sit waiting to partake of the Eucharist until I get confirmed and MOST of the women in the pews are contracepting….

Well I am making some assumptions…from:

1. Most men have the women take contraception if contraception is being used. I think we are selfish…I know I KNOW another assumption…
2. Reading what is published about Catholics and contraception
3. What Patrick Coffin has stated on his show
4. Discussion with my Priest

Which one should I not believe?

then I say:
"How in the world would you know such a thing?"
Easy, honest answer: you wouldn’t. In fact, you couldn’t.

No I cannot…But I can guess. I can make an educated guess based on the information I currently have. Could I be wrong, YES is it likely I am wrong, not if the published numbers from the Catholic Church are right, or my Priest is honest… So I make an assumption don’t shoot me. This is not a university it is a BLOG…a place to hold conversations. To have FUN to gather and meet people…By the way I have met a lot of people and I have increased my knowledge……

Did you know there is this older opinionated lady on this board that is pretty smart, but don’t tell her I said that, she has a pretty big ego already and she might just think she is teaching me something…

:flowers:Good night Cathrina…

 

[Christopher68]

I think it’s very easy to believe in such absolutes until dealing with such decisions face to face.

This is an astute observation. It is easy for posters to state how they would respond to certain situations - when they’re not the ones involved. What if it’s their wife in the hospital, and she would die unless action is taken? Or what if it’s their wife or daughter who is raped and impregnated by a criminal? These are horrid situations for one to be in, but these are not situations that require the government to make decisions for the individuals involved. There was also a poster on this thread who stated that he/she would not be content if ALL abortions were eliminated if it meant that the couples were practicing birth control to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and that he/she wanted all birth control made illegal too. With all the issues in the world - poverty, war, murder, theft, rape, abuse, addictions, etc. - the poster seemed preoccupied with the notion that a happily married couple would want to give each other pleasure - and he/she would use the coercive power of government to prevent it. This is a mindset that I cannot fathom. Stating the general position of the church is one thing. Asking the government to enforce these issues on the entire populace is something different altogether.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I agree with you because the ethics committee was involved and all involved were in support of the abortion to save the woman’s life. Legally speaking, they could have (and probably would have) gotten sued if the woman died in their care if they abandoned her when she wanted to procedure and the doctors made the prognosis and treatment recommendation. I can’t see why they wouldn’t have just transferred her elsewhere for the appropriate treatment, unless they weren’t sure she would make it. There’s nothing they could have done without risking a lawsuit for neglect. So unfortunately, it was a bad situation all the way around for anyone involved in her care.

Why would she want the procedure, unless the doctor brought it up?

 

[kimmielittle]

Yeah, murder is murder but different from abortion.

Directed harm against innocent life …Directly causing innocent life to die…IS murder. It is done with full intent. It is premeditated. It is a direct attack against innocent life. In fact, it’s playing God…and no one has that right…except God

 

[Ockham]

misogynistic priest

misogynistic priests

And of course, according to you, I have no credibility,

You would have more credibility if you could present an argument free of hostility and insults. Why are you here anyway?