six nuns excommunicated for heresy!

[BartBurk]

Could you give us further description of the mormon that was excommunicated, and exactly what was the defense offered by Catholics on this board?

It probably matters.

The Mormon was excommunicated for supposedly telling others about facts of Mormon church history which brought Mormonism into question. The news accounts indicated he shared this information with family members. He offered to simply resign quietly from the LDS Church, but the Stake President insisted on excommunicating him and then announcing this excommunication to all of the wards in his stake. Generally, such information is not made public. Because the Stake President was going to make it public, the man went to the newspapers to make sure his side of the story was also available.

I recently was asked to either resign from Mormonism or face a Mormon church court because I had joined the Catholic Church. I chose to resign quietly.

The difference I see with this man and the nuns is that the nuns were being public with their apostasy. This man was only sharing true historical information with the brothers in his immediate family. The nuns were joining a schismatic group. This man had no intention of leaving Mormonism until the authorities forced his hand, and then they went ahead and excommunicated him instead of allowing a quiet departure like I was able to do.

 

[estesbob]

I believe that he admited that he did. You have used very diplomatic language for adultery. I believe that a family member finked on him. However, I needed to set the record right because of what apostaterlds said. The woman would not be identified in such a case. Privacy is very important.

The point is: I believe that Simon wanted to be excommunicated for his findings to be turned into a martyr. Why else would he not resign his membership if he did not believe in the book of mormon?

I used the same language the “court of love did”. Since he had already left the Church what was the point of the hearing? Undobtedly it was so people like you could claim he was ecomunicated for adultery rather than the fact his scientific research destroyed the whole premise of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Apryl]

The Mormon was excommunicated for supposedly telling others about facts of Mormon church history which brought Mormonism into question. QUOTE]

Thank you

I think that many find excommunication harsh, but I have only heard instances where people have basically separated themselves from the church/group, and the church/group said, ‘if that’s how you want it, go for it’

Sort of like saying, ‘My wife divorced me, so I left her’ or ‘They wanted to fire me, so I quit’.

Who is really the one making the separation? According to your story, what this man was doing basically said ‘I don’t belive/agree with the teachings of the Mormon group’. And if you don’t belive and/or agree, would you be a part of the group?

I think not.

 

[Tabitha]

This is all well and good. But I will bet a dollar that the community was in support of them because they were nuns in the catholic church. Now that they have been excommunicated, it will be interesting to see if the community support continues. There could be an exodus of catholic support and an influx of other support from the greater community. Or it all could dry up. Who will pay their bills?

If the worst thing happens and they lose all support from the community, and they lose the daycare/preschool, they can sell their property and share a house. Believe me, they won’t be hard up.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk;2781875:

The Mormon was excommunicated for supposedly telling others about facts of Mormon church history which brought Mormonism into question. QUOTE]

Thank you

I think that many find excommunication harsh, but I have only heard instances where people have basically separated themselves from the church/group, and the church/group said, ‘if that’s how you want it, go for it’

Sort of like saying, ‘My wife divorced me, so I left her’ or ‘They wanted to fire me, so I quit’.

Who is really the one making the separation? According to your story, what this man was doing basically said ‘I don’t belive/agree with the teachings of the Mormon group’. And if you don’t belive and/or agree, would you be a part of the group?

I think not.

The point was he was trying to resign quietly and the LDS Church stake president decided he would try to embarrass this person in front of all of the congregations in his stake. Usually, the Mormon Church tries to keep these things quiet, but not in this case because the stake president wanted to pull a power play. It backfired on him when the man went to the press to make sure his side of the story was told. It seems to me a very different situation than the nuns because it doesn’t sound as if they were going to leave without being pushed.

 

[BibleSteve]

What are Catholics asked to do regarding these excommunicated ones?

Can you be friends with them? Invite them to your home for a meal? Go on vacations with them? Share Bible discussions with them?

Are you asked to curtail any of these normal activities you might have with another member in good standing with the church?

 

[Montalban]

What are Catholics asked to do regarding these excommunicated ones?

Can you be friends with them? Invite them to your home for a meal? Go on vacations with them? Share Bible discussions with them?

Are you asked to curtail any of these normal activities you might have with another member in good standing with the church?

Do you often take nuns on vacation?

 

[hosemonkey]

What are Catholics asked to do regarding these excommunicated ones?

Can you be friends with them? Invite them to your home for a meal? Go on vacations with them? Share Bible discussions with them?

Are you asked to curtail any of these normal activities you might have with another member in good standing with the church?

Unlike JWs, who cut “disfellowshipped” persons off from contact, excommunicated Catholics are only denied the Sacraments. They are welcomed at mass, but cannot receive Holy Communion, make Confession etc. It does not happen often enough for the average Catholic to be familiar with excommunicated persons.

 

[Leopard]

Unlike JWs, who cut “disfellowshipped” persons off from contact, excommunicated Catholics are only denied the Sacraments. They are welcomed at mass, but cannot receive Holy Communion, make Confession etc. It does not happen often enough for the average Catholic to be familiar with excommunicated persons.

More than welcome to attend Mass, they are still just as obligated to attend Mass as any other Catholic, although they may not receive Holy Communion. the purpose of excommunication is not to expel the erring from the Church but to correct their error.

I would clarify what you said about Confession, though. Catholics under canonical excommunication are highly encouraged to go to confession as this may be integral to having their excommunication lifted, although in the cases of certain reserved sins it may be necessary to make their confessions to their bishop or even the pope (who may in turn delegate faculties to absolve reserved sins back down from from the pope to the local bishop or from the bishop to a priest.)

 

[why_me]

Could you give us further description of the mormon that was excommunicated, and exactly what was the defense offered by Catholics on this board?

It probably matters.

The newspaper article was a little vague about it all. The article said that he was being excommunicated for telling members about his findings that led him to disbelieve. I don’t think that this is an excommunicable offense. What is excommunicable is if you begin to preach against the church. I do believe that he began to bad mouth the mormon church to other members and this is why he was excommunicated. Now the excommunication process can take awhile. So these things did not happen overnight but most likely over a certain period of time. Also, he was a man who had important positions in the lds church. Usually excommunication happens in secret. However, in this case, if the regional leadership believes that he was still going to use his past positions as ways of influencing other members, they could announce his excommunication publically. For after all, members would not know of his excommunication otherwise unless he told them.

 

[why_me]

Apryl;2781957:

The point was he was trying to resign quietly and the LDS Church stake president decided he would try to embarrass this person in front of all of the congregations in his stake. Usually, the Mormon Church tries to keep these things quiet, but not in this case because the stake president wanted to pull a power play. It backfired on him when the man went to the press to make sure his side of the story was told. It seems to me a very different situation than the nuns because it doesn’t sound as if they were going to leave without being pushed.

Not quite but you gave a good use of spin. I related the reasons in a previous post about why it happened the way it did. Be that as it may, it wasn’t announced publically in the local lds church. And as I have demonstrated time and again, the reasons for his disillusionment as related in the press did not have a ring of truth in it since he discovered about polygamy from an official lds/mormon website, which is a strange way to hide a ‘secret’.

There is something fishy to his story.

 

[why_me]

I used the same language the “court of love did”. Since he had already left the Church what was the point of the hearing? Undobtedly it was so people like you could claim he was ecomunicated for adultery rather than the fact his scientific research destroyed the whole premise of the Book of Mormon.

Simon did not leave the church. He remained a member. He did not resign his membership. Here we have Simon going around the globe preaching that the book of mormon is false because of DNA and yet, still not resigning his membership? Why?

Could it have been because he wanted to be excommunicated for his findings and thereby, become a martyred star in the exmormon world? Perhaps so.

The local church was not going to take the bait.

 

[why_me]

If the worst thing happens and they lose all support from the community, and they lose the daycare/preschool, they can sell their property and share a house. Believe me, they won’t be hard up.

Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person who has been a nun for 30 to 40 years? They might not have a take on money as we do. They are now separated from the church they love and also the Eucharist. Can money release that pain?

 

[Montalban]

Who knows what goes on in the mind of a person who has been a nun for 30 to 40 years? They might not have a take on money as we do. They are now separated from the church they love and also the Eucharist. Can money release that pain?

What would *you *propose?

 

[Zooey]

Now Zooey, please do me a favor. I want you to read the extract from the newspaper that posted the news of the mormon’s excommunication. And please point out to me jus where he was excommunicated for talking to family members. I suppose that if one repeats a lie often enough it suddenly becomes a truth.

He said he learned that his five brothers “were doing the same research and arriving at the same conclusions” and doubts, he said. The same was true for his best friend since childhood. In a meeting earlier this summer with Molina, Lamborn acknowledged that he wanted to give up his church membership.

“I was planning to leave the church quietly, but was denied that opportunity, presumably because I was speaking openly to other members about my findings and (was) writing things down,” Lamborn said

Now please show me** where he was excommunicated for talking to family members?** Other members are not family. They were other members of the lds church. It is ‘mormon’ talk.

In red & underlined, in your post: “five brothers” & “best friend”. (At least my best friend is regarded as one of the family).
His brothers & best friend are the ones to whom he was speaking. (According to everybody’s account, including the Mormon powers that be).
Maybe it seems normal to you, for someone to be excommunicated for talking over spiritual matters with your family & your best friend; to me, it sounds like mind-control has given way to abrogating the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution…and worse.
Just FYI, one of the most distinctive signs of a mind-control cult, is the attempt to control the person’s ability to communicate with his relatives…

You clearly have, at the least, a very ***different ***understanding of excommunication, from the rest of us around here…
Nobody is attempting to isolate, manipulate, or otherwise distress the nuns of this “Army of Mary”; they’ve simply been called on their continued defiance of their spiritual advisors. They apparently prefer the council of the Army of Mary over that of the Catholic Church. That’s their choice. In no way, is anyone preventing them from contact with their chosen advisors. They just aren’t going to be able to serve two masters… [As, you know, “no man can serve 2 masters”?!?]Maybe, if they would start spending less time listening to some wacky transchanneler/psychic/whatever, & put that time into reading their Bibles, they’d be reminded that Christians aren’t supposed to be involved with that kind of carp.
That, you see, is the point of the excommunication. To make them think over what they are doing. In the hopes that they will cut it out.
The Mormon isn’t being offered that chance; he’s been turned into a pariah for doing research…something that is, don’t you know, protected by that “pesky” Constitution…

 

[Petergee]

What are Catholics asked to do regarding these excommunicated ones?

Nothing. Except that if you are a priest and an excommunicated person presents himself for communion, not to administer it to him.

Can you be friends with them? Invite them to your home for a meal? Go on vacations with them? Share Bible discussions with them?

Absolutely.

Are you asked to curtail any of these normal activities you might have with another member in good standing with the church?

No.
I see from this thread that, like a lot of other terms which they have appropriated from Catholics, Mormons have given “excommunication” a totally different meaning. Hence your confusion.

 

[why_me]

Nothing. Except that if you are a priest and an excommunicated person presents himself for communion, not to administer it to him.

I see from this thread that, like a lot of other terms which they have appropriated from Catholics, Mormons have given “excommunication” a totally different meaning. Hence your confusion.

Actually, have mormons given the word a totally different meaning? In the catholic faith, the celebration of the Mass is tied to th Eucharist. If one is denied communion with the body and blood of Christ, one is also denied fellowship since they are both related. To attend Mass without being allowed to take communion will certainly be an empty experience for the person excommunicated. As any catholic will tell you, it is the communion that gets one through the week, especially when a person can take communion every day. Just look at St. Faustina Kowalska. She sacrificed much of her health for communion and she would have done more if her spiritual director or confessor would not have let her take it when she wanted to take the body of Christ.

 

[hosemonkey]

Actually, have mormons given the word a totally different meaning? In the catholic faith, the celebration of the Mass is tied to th Eucharist. If one is denied communion with the body and blood of Christ, one is also denied fellowship since they are both related. To attend Mass without being allowed to take communion will certainly be an empty experience for the person excommunicated. As any catholic will tell you, it is the communion that gets one through the week, especially when a person can take communion every day. Just look at St. Faustina Kowalska. She sacrificed much of her health for communion and she would have done more if her spiritual director or confessor would not have let her take it when she wanted to take the body of Christ.

You are incorrect. Many are denied communion for various reasons, irregular marriages etc. They are still very much encouraged to make a spiritual communion until such time that they can actually communicate. Holy Mass is most definately not an “empty experience” even if one does not receive Holy Communion. Not receiving Holy Communion does not mean that one is denied fellowship. In mormon and JW parlance, excommunication means cutting off, both physically and spiritually.

 

[Corki]

Yes, it is a different meaning. When a Catholic is excommunicated, he/she is still a member of the Church. Excommunication is called “medicinal” in that it is hoped that this will be a undeniable sign to the person that he/she has to change his/her ways and come back. The goal is ALWAYS that the person come back.

As for Communion, it is the summit of the Mass but many people don’t receive it: children who have not completed their Catechesis for First Communion, people who have not been to Confession, even people who ate a snack just before Mass. Even Catholics in good standing are only required to receive Communion once a year. There is much benefit of the Mass, even without receiving Communion.

 

[zing363]

maybe i’m jumping into this a little late, and maybe what i am going to say has already been said, but when a Catholic is excommunicated, he/she can return and is not damned to an eternity in hell, you can repent and thus be brought back into communion with the Church. But as for mormons, when you are excommunicated, you cannot return, and you are damned for all eternity. Strange to me, that a sect of Christianity that believes in an all forgiving God, could say that you cannot be forgiven. of coarse, i also hear that most people believe that mormons are not Christians to begin with, but i am not sure i want to start that one