six nuns excommunicated for heresy!

[zerinus]

I’m pretty sure he is refering to your charity, which is required for you to show on CAF.

I am pretty sure you are wrong! That was his answer of desperation because in my original post I had touched a raw nerve. He has apparently driven his family away from him because he could not force them to convert to Catholicism; and now he wants to pin the blame on Mormonism. When I told him that, he got hurt, and in a fit of pique he posted that message to me (having nothing better to say), thinking to hurt me as much as he possibly could. Well, it backfired. I didn’t get hurt. His post is still irrelevant; and it says a lot more about him than it does about me.

In any case, those quotes were all taken out of context, and ignore the circumstances under which they were said.

You do no service to the Mormon church when cast such stones.

I think you should let me worry about that. Catholics have enough on their plate trying to defend Catholicism. They don’t need to worry about Mormonism too.

zerinus

 

[dosdog]

I am pretty sure you are wrong! That was his answer of desperation because in my original post I had touched a raw nerve. He has apparently driven his family away from him because he could not force them to convert to Catholicism; and now he wants to pin the blame on Mormonism. When I told him that, he got hurt, and in a fit of pique he posted that message to me (having nothing better to say), thinking to hurt me as much as he possibly could. Well, it backfired. I didn’t get hurt. His post is still irrelevant; and it says a lot more about him than it does about me.

In any case, those quotes were all taken out of context, and ignore the circumstances under which they were said.

I think you should let me worry about that. Catholics have enough on their plate trying to defend Catholicism. They don’t need to worry about Mormonism too.

zerinus

It is clear, in my view, that Joseph Smith behaved in classic philosopher king fashion, and that the Mormon “faithful history” policy discloses a group of modern philosopher kings who feel justified in telling pious lies. “Faithful history” is a form of Mormon censorship. It suppresses all information that does not encourage Mormons to be more obedient to current Mormon leaders. Hence, facts that strongly suggest Smith and other Mormon leaders are not trustworthy are airbrushed out of Mormon consciousness.mccue.cc/bob/spirituality.htm

Former Mormon bishop explains the collapse of his faith
McCue said, “I read Mormon history as the professional historians write it, and realized that my religious leaders had misled me as to how Mormonism started, and [recognized]&a pattern of Mormon leadership deception [that] goes back to Mormonism’s beginnings with Joseph Smith.”
“The suppressed aspects of Mormon history that most troubled me indicated many instances in which Mormon leaders have deceived both their followers and the public about important matters. Joseph Smith was the worst in this regard. His tendency to exaggerate or lie when in a tight spot bears a striking resemblance to the practices of shady stock promoters I have on occasion met relative to my legal practice,” the attorney stated.
“Mormon leaders at the local level are sincere and generally unaware of the issues I had raised,” said McCue. And he says that though he is critical of LDS leaders he knows they can be “genuinely loving.” “They believe God’s will requires that they mislead their followers,” he explained.
rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon164.html

The Mormon Purge
Documenting the plague of Excommunications in the early 1990’s of hundreds of conservative Mormons. Reasons, ramifications, reflections. by Sterling D. Allan
greaterthings.com/Books/MormonPurge/index.html

I found the Mormon temple not at all like I had been taught to believe it would be. The temple ceremony was one of the main reasons I left the Mormon church. I soon realized the Mormon church was not the church I had been told it was or I thought it was. It certainly was not the church of God as I had been told. Many who came to the temple never wanted to come back. It was a very depressing experience for me and my wife and very sickening, especially if one believes that it was designed by God. I was ashamed of having served there, after I found out the truth. I realized I could no longer serve a God who was so changable, violent and deceptive.
home.teleport.com/~packham/temples3.htm

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine,
Lying for the Lord - MormonWiki.org

 

[iamrefreshed]

I am pretty sure you are wrong! That was his answer of desperation because in my original post I had touched a raw nerve. He has apparently driven his family away from him because he could not force them to convert to Catholicism; and now he wants to pin the blame on Mormonism. When I told him that, he got hurt, and in a fit of pique he posted that message to me (having nothing better to say), thinking to hurt me as much as he possibly could. Well, it backfired. I didn’t get hurt. His post is still irrelevant; and it says a lot more about him than it does about me.

No, he just posted some of your vehemently anti-catholic tirades to show your bias.

From his posting you could not have possibly come to the conclusion he tried to convert his family…What’s truly troubling is your lack of charity for a man who seems to have lost his family:blush: . If that’s typical Mormon charity, keep it.

In any case, those quotes were all taken out of context, and ignore the circumstances under which they were said.

That may be the case and in your defense I took a peek at some of your other postings.

I saw nothing out of context.

I think you should let me worry about that. Catholics have enough on their plate trying to defend Catholicism. They don’t need to worry about Mormonism too.

I’m not worried about Mormonism in the least. With folks like you evangelizing with your vitrolic methods, Mormonism is sure to disappear.

 

[BartBurk]

Not accepting callings is not a sin against which any kind of disciplinary action can be taken. There are thousands of LDS who have gone inactive, and have not set foot inside an LDS Church for years. That is the ultimate act of “not accepting callings”. They don’t pay any tithing either; and very probably don’t obey the Word of Wisdom neither. I don’t see them being routinely excommunicated from the Church.

zerinus

I had a Bishop back in the 80’s who worked hard at excommunicating inactives in order to clean up the church rolls and improve the home teaching numbers. Some people were excommunicated who hadn’t seen the inside of the church for years, but an excuse was found to get rid of them. Bishops have a lot of authority locally to do what they want and can exercise it if they wish to do so. Unless the member being acted upon fights it, it’s going to sail right through the system.

 

[zerinus]

I had a Bishop back in the 80’s who worked hard at excommunicating inactives in order to clean up the church rolls and improve the home teaching numbers. Some people were excommunicated who hadn’t seen the inside of the church for years, but an excuse was found to get rid of them. Bishops have a lot of authority locally to do what they want and can exercise it if they wish to do so. Unless the member being acted upon fights it, it’s going to sail right through the system.

That does not sound like a true story to me. I don’t beleive it.

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

Whyme, I do appreciate your efforts at pointing out the hypocrisy rampant here but you’re talking to a very hardened lot. I think you made your point and everyone knows it.

When it comes to church discipline, it seems that there is a legitimate question on how to best balance what’s good for the sinner versus protecting the church. You don’t want to be too harsh and ex-communicate too easily but you don’t want a lot of bad examples around, eating food that’s been sacrificed to idols and all. I’d say there’s not much question that Catholics are much more lenient than Mormons.

In most cases, if a person is beset by temptation but is honestly struggling to overcome it, there’s not much point in excommunication. It’s when they are unrepentant and still insist on claims and privileges of membership when it comes as a problem.

 

[PaulDupre]

I had a Bishop back in the 80’s who worked hard at excommunicating inactives in order to clean up the church rolls and improve the home teaching numbers. Some people were excommunicated who hadn’t seen the inside of the church for years, but an excuse was found to get rid of them.

Bart,
You and I must have had the same bishop. I saw the same thing when I served as 2nd counselor in a bishopric from 1981 - 1985.
Paul

 

[zerinus]

Bart,
You and I must have had the same bishop. I saw the same thing when I served as 2nd counselor in a bishopric from 1981 - 1985.
Paul

As unlikely as the first. I don’t believe it. You have a track record of telling lies about Mormonism. Nothing that you say can be trusted. Unless you can back up what you say with evidence, you are not a reliable witness about Mormonism.

zerinus

 

[iamrefreshed]

As unlikely as the first. I don’t believe it. You have a track record of telling lies about Mormonism. Nothing that you say can be trusted. Unless you can back up what you say with evidence, you are not a reliable witness about Mormonism.

zerinus

So sayeth zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

Bart,
You and I must have had the same bishop. I saw the same thing when I served as 2nd counselor in a bishopric from 1981 - 1985.
Paul

I wonder if Zerinius was even alive in 1981.

 

[Jodi]

I was lds until easter two years ago. I was born under the covenant, couldn’t wait to be baptised, served a mission even though I am a girl, married in the temple and served as my wards interpreter for the deaf in my ward and stake. I know of bishops who have gone through their innactive records and cleaned them up. Meaning they contacted each member on those records and gave them the opportunity to return to the lds church or the choice to formally give up their membership. There are many reasons some bishops feel the need to do this. Technically every member is supposed to have home and visiting teachers and the pool of people needing these is always bigger than the pool of active visiting teachers. Yes at times the bishops also present a list of those they would like to excommunicate to finish this process. It is taken to the stake president but unless someone cares enough to show up to the hearing the excommunications can happen very fast to people who did not request to be seperated from the church. I still have many lds friends and relatives I am not angry towards my former spiritual home. People have been excommunicated for political reasons, sometimes unfairly. It is actually unheard of in my local ward for someone to be excommunicated for cheating on their spouse. You can be but if you are repentant it almost never happens. My own mom was living with another man with no intention of staying with my father and she was never excommunicated even after 10 plus years of this behavior. My husband asked a lot of questions that were uncomfortable for my bishop and I truely believe my bishop was glad to get his resignation letter. I did not leave the lds church at that time. I however because of my visible position translating at the front of the church was not allowed to leave quite as gracefully. #1 they did not have another translator. #2 they liked me better(I am so modest ) #3 the leadership felt that me leaving would be harmful to the flock. When I turned in my letter I was told I could not leave the church without a council. This was they could #1 embarass me into staying (church court means I did something bad) #2 they could say they got rid of me instead of me leaving them. It was tense but I did appeal to my stake president and he graciously accepted my resignation and allowed me to leave without the drama my bishop was anticipating.

 

[hosemonkey]

As unlikely as the first. I don’t believe it. You have a track record of telling lies about Mormonism. Nothing that you say can be trusted. Unless you can back up what you say with evidence, you are not a reliable witness about Mormonism.

zerinus

Let’s change the words around.
zerinus,
You have a track record of telling lies about Catholicism. Nothing that you say can be trusted. Unless you can back up what you say with evidence, you are not a reliable witness about Catholicism.(Or anything else, for that matter).

You are not the infallible voice of authority regarding the cult of mormonism, you claim knowledge that you do not possess. You cannot possibly know what goes on in areas removed from your location. It is highly doubtful that you would tell the truth, even if you had personal knowledge of abuses. You owe all on this forum an apology for your rudeness.

 

[hosemonkey]

I was lds until easter two years ago. I was born under the covenant, couldn’t wait to be baptised, served a mission even though I am a girl, married in the temple and served as my wards interpreter for the deaf in my ward and stake. I know of bishops who have gone through their innactive records and cleaned them up. Meaning they contacted each member on those records and gave them the opportunity to return to the lds church or the choice to formally give up their membership. There are many reasons some bishops feel the need to do this. Technically every member is supposed to have home and visiting teachers and the pool of people needing these is always bigger than the pool of active visiting teachers. Yes at times the bishops also present a list of those they would like to excommunicate to finish this process. It is taken to the stake president but unless someone cares enough to show up to the hearing the excommunications can happen very fast to people who did not request to be seperated from the church. I still have many lds friends and relatives I am not angry towards my former spiritual home. People have been excommunicated for political reasons, sometimes unfairly. It is actually unheard of in my local ward for someone to be excommunicated for cheating on their spouse. You can be but if you are repentant it almost never happens. My own mom was living with another man with no intention of staying with my father and she was never excommunicated even after 10 plus years of this behavior. My husband asked a lot of questions that were uncomfortable for my bishop and I truely believe my bishop was glad to get his resignation letter. I did not leave the lds church at that time. I however because of my visible position translating at the front of the church was not allowed to leave quite as gracefully. #1 they did not have another translator. #2 they liked me better(I am so modest ) #3 the leadership felt that me leaving would be harmful to the flock. When I turned in my letter I was told I could not leave the church without a council. This was they could #1 embarass me into staying (church court means I did something bad) #2 they could say they got rid of me instead of me leaving them. It was tense but I did appeal to my stake president and he graciously accepted my resignation and allowed me to leave without the drama my bishop was anticipating.

There you have it in a nutshell. According to zerinus however, you are a liar and cannot be trusted, zerinus being the arbiter of all things mormon. Just out of curiousity, your profile says that you are LDS, but you have resigned. Are you exploring Catholicism, or have you gone to a protestant denomination? If you have become Catholic,then welcome home, if not, we’d be glad to have you.

 

[Jodi]

eeck I need to update my profile. I first created it before I joined the catholic church. I did a lot of my early annonymous questioning here on these forums. I was baptised easter of 06 into the roman catholic church. I remember that my lds bishop was just a man with no training, a family, full time job,and trying to be a spiritual counselor to a large ward. It helps me keep prospective when I am tempted to be angry. There is a temptation to be angry at the lds church when you leave, but anger and the spirit can not coexist. I like having the spirit around much more than what ever fleeting emotions anger would bring.

 

[Jodi]

I think I fixed my profile. Let me know if it still reads wrong.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I want to bring this into the discussion because of the high profile excommunication of a mormon on this section of the forum. As we can see all churches excommunicate members. And yes, these nuns are receiving publicity.

My point: one can not criticize the mormons for excommunicating a high priesthood holder when the catholic church does the same for its members who are classified as heretics.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070926/ap_on_re_us/nuns_heresy

Does anyone wonder if those Church leaders who knew about this for perhaps 20-30 years would have continued to ignore or covered this up, as has been the tendancy at times, had not this become more public knowledge?

Do our Church leaders have any instruction concerning something like this? 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15 “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. …If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070926/ap_on_re_us/nuns_heresy
“The six nuns are associated with the Good Shepherd Monastery of Our Lady of Charity and Refuge in Hot Springs. Sister Mary Theresa Dionne, one of the nuns excommunicated, said the nuns will still live at the convent property, which they own.”
Anyone wonder what those faithful Catholics who donated in good faith over the years, assumingly sacrificially at times, would say concerning how much of the property those individuals own, especially now that they have veered from the faith? Makes me wonder if they ever really did understand the faith. Whose property is this? The Catholic community, or the individual nuns?

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“On their own, the six sisters decided to join the association between 20 and 30 years ago and adopt the teachings of its founder, Marie-Paul Giguere, who believes she is the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary.”
How could this go on for 20-30 years and not have been addressed soon after it became known? Instead of allowing this “yeast” to spread?

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“It is a painfully historic moment in this Church,” Msgr. Hebert said at a press conference Sept. 26 at St. John Center in Little Rock. “These are my friends. I have known them my whole life.”
And it took him this long for this correction to occur? 20 to 30 years later? Please!

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“Diocesan officials said Bishop J. Peter Sartain remained in dialogue with the sisters from 2001 to 2006 about their involvement in the Army of Mary, encouraging them to stop promoting the association among the laity.“
“encouraging” them to stop promoting? Now there’s a morally and theologically courageous step. Did he ever read 2 Thess?

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“Father Benedict Picard, a member of the Army of Mary, served as the order’s chaplain in Hot Springs from 1998 until he returned to Canada in 2004.”
“Bishop Sartain worked with Father Picard and the sisters to try to get them to disassociate with the movement,” said Deacon Bo McAllister, diocesan chancellor for canonical affairs.”
Strong work! By the way, what is the status of Benedict Picard? Still a priest in good standing? What’s his Bishop have to say?

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“During the press conference, Msgr. Hebert said the sisters’ decisions mean the monastery will no longer be recognized by the diocese, and laity in Garland County should not financially support the order.”
Most discerning lay Catholics probably figured that out years ago, unless the truth was hidden from them.

arkansascatholic.org/article.php?id=1006
“It was common for parishioners in Hot Springs and Hot Springs Village to raise money for the day care and assist with projects around the grounds.”
If only they had know the beliefs of those they were supporting Wonder if they feel betrayed and fooled? Something like, what was I supporting?

God bless,

Michael

 

[hosemonkey]

I think I fixed my profile. Let me know if it still reads wrong.

Looks good now. Welcome aboard! I would be curious to know what led you out of mormonism and into the Church.

 

[Jodi]

I have noticed that the catholic church is a very slow moving stone. This can be a good thing because decisions are very methodical but as a whole the leadership does not seem to move at anything other than a glacial pace. This means things like excommunicating nuns and working on priest abuse can take a REALLY long time. On the bright side slow moving stones are not pushed around by the quickly changing winds of public sentiment and in general the decisions once made are set in that same slow moving stone.

 

[why_me]

I was lds until easter two years ago. I was born under the covenant, couldn’t wait to be baptised, served a mission even though I am a girl, married in the temple and served as my wards interpreter for the deaf in my ward and stake. I know of bishops who have gone through their innactive records and cleaned them up. Meaning they contacted each member on those records and gave them the opportunity to return to the lds church or the choice to formally give up their membership. There are many reasons some bishops feel the need to do this. Technically every member is supposed to have home and visiting teachers and the pool of people needing these is always bigger than the pool of active visiting teachers.

Actually, in the past it worked this way. It had nothing to do with home teaching records. Home teaching records are usually handled by the elder’s quoram president and not the bishop.

However, there are members who no longer want the home teachers to visit. Usually these members want nothing more to do with the lds church. They were given the opportunity to resign their membership or unless they notified the bishop, there name would be removed. It is usually done for their benefit of those members and not for the bishop’s benefit. Perhaps one can call it house cleaning but there is no sense for someone to be a member if they want nothing more to do the lds church.

And it is better for them to have their name removed.

 

[why_me]

My husband asked a lot of questions that were uncomfortable for my bishop and I truely believe my bishop was glad to get his resignation letter. I did not leave the lds church at that time. I however because of my visible position translating at the front of the church was not allowed to leave quite as gracefully. #1 they did not have another translator. #2 they liked me better(I am so modest ) #3 the leadership felt that me leaving would be harmful to the flock. When I turned in my letter I was told I could not leave the church without a council. This was they could #1 embarass me into staying (church court means I did something bad) #2 they could say they got rid of me instead of me leaving them. It was tense but I did appeal to my stake president and he graciously accepted my resignation and allowed me to leave without the drama my bishop was anticipating.

I seriously doubt your version of the story. I have a difficult time believing that your husband made the bishop uncomfortable when asking questions. Of course, not everyone has an answer and that would make someone uncomfortable. And I doubt that the bishop welcomed your husband’s resignation letter. Most bishops are just average guys with family and job. And after 5 or 6 years they are released from their ‘calling’ (position) in the lds church and move on to different responsibilites. I think that he was sad about your husband.

I also doubt your story about how they handled your resignation. I have known people who have left the church. They just leave and then resign. No problem. Your story sounds just a little far fetched to me. First, you could have asked to be released from your responsibility. They have to accept your decision. Second, you stop attending the church. Third, you submit your resignation letter. Fourth, local church sends letter to Salt Lake. Fifth, Salt Lake notifies you that you are no longer a member.

Case closed.