Six reasons NOT to send your daughter to college

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To 57thDimension:

As noted, your statistical observations are impressive in scope. Over history (say, the last 200 years), women have had the opportunity to engage more broadly with the “world” (education, politics, employment, etc.), but the hours in the day have not changed. Trade-offs result. Women are more independent and free to choose their own path in life.

But please share with us you thinking on all this data you’ve presented. Does the data lead you to advocate (or believe as desirable) any change, from current attitudes, that:
  • women should adopt to their education, or
  • that parents should adopt in how they bring up their girls, or
  • that governments should adopt in any “policy” area, such as the availability of higher education to women?
 
I cannot believe that we are really having this discussion on this thread, as if proving that an education poses some additional risk of near occasion of sin is a) a reason to deny an education to anybody, instead of a reason to address the risks when planning that education and b) something that uniquely concerns women.

Let us consider, too, that marital problems are hardly the province of the educated alone. Financial difficulty is among the main reasons for divorce, and (big surprise coming, here!) the people with low-paying jobs tend to have more financial difficulties than people who have high paying jobs.

Let us consider this list of ccupations in which the divorced and never re-married are the most prevalent
(that is, does not count the divorced and re-married, but only the currently divorced)
  1. Dancers & choreographers – 43.05% divorce rate
  2. Bartenders – 38.43% divorce rate
  3. Massage therapists – 38.22% divorce rate
  4. Gaming cage worker – 34.66% divorce rate
  5. Extruding machine operator – 32.74%
  6. Gaming service worker – 31.35% divorce rate
  7. Factory workers: food & tobacco – 29.78% divorce rate
  8. Telephone operators – 29.30% divorce rate
  9. Nursing, psychiatric, and home health aides – 28.95% divorce rate
  10. Entertainers and performers, sports and related workers – 28.49% divorce
  11. Baggage porters and concierges – 28.49% divorce rate
  12. Telemarketers – 28.10% divorce rate
  13. Waiters/waitresses – 27.12% divorce rate
  14. Roofers – 26.85% divorce rate
  15. Maids and housekeeping cleaners – 26.38% divorce rate
Occupations in which the divorced and never re-married are the least prevalent:

Media & communication equipment workers – essentially 0% divorce rate
Agricultural engineers – 1.78% divorce rate
Optometrists – 4.01% divorce rate
Transit and railroad police – 5.26% divorce rate
Clergy – 5.61% divorce rate
Directors of religious activity – 5.88% divorce rate
Sales engineers – 6.61% divorce rate
Podiatrists – 6.81% divorce rate
Nuclear engineers – 7.29% divorce

Read more: businessinsider.com/highest-divorce-rates-by-profession-2010-9?op=1#ixzz2fXsZeQWJ

Did anyone notice a difference in the amount of education required for the jobs on each of those lists? (Hint: Note that the nursing category was for the aides, not for the nurses). Considering that a child who does not get a college education is more likely to marry someone who also does not have a college education, why do we think that denying a college education to someone for whom it is appropriate is somehow buying an insurance policy against marital problems? Guess what happens when you teach a woman domestic skills and ONLY domestic skills? Yes! She has been trained to clean houses, do the unskilled labor at a nursing home, and wait tables, which puts her in the category of those most likely to be in the workforce divorced and never remarried. IOW, when she gets a divorce, those are the jobs she’s been trained to do, and when she does she will be surrounded by co-workers who are also divorced and never re-married. Wonderful. Gosh, how lucky she is that she has no student loans to worry about!!!
 
What makes me sick also is that 4 people voted for a rating for this thread, which was really a rating for that article. Two peple gave it a well deserved 1 star, while 2 others gave it a 5 star. The fact that 2 people here would actually rate that article as excellent is scary.
Did you expect people that are opposed to education to be intelligent? Just look at other forms of prejudice and bigotry and those who represent those views. Do the supremacists seem very intelligent?

No, I am not surprised some gave it a five. Let’s fact it. Even though this is a debate, it is almost all one-sided that the blogger has a seriously flawed way of thinking.
 
Post #219:
Where does that article conclude that a college education causes a woman to dislike housework? I do not see where a causal link was demonstrated.
I made no such implication.

Beyond that:
In general, studies suggest that women with more education do less housework (Bergen, 1991; Hersch & Stratton, 1994; Pittman & Blanchard, 1996; Presser, 1994; Orbuch & Eyster, 1997; Sanchez & Thomson, 1997; South & Spitze, 1994), purchase more domestic services (Cohen, 1998), and have children who do less housework (Waite & Goldscheider, 1992).
Women with less education than their husbands and those who perceive the costs of leaving the marriage to be high perceive more fairness (Lennon & Rosenfield, 1994; Wilkie et al., 1998), and higher levels of education for both spouses are associated with seeing less fairness in the division of labor (DeMaris & Longmore, 1996; John et al., 1995; Robinson & Spitze, 1992).
Coltrane, Scott. “Research on household labor: Modeling and measuring the social embeddedness of routine family work.” Journal of Marriage and family 62.4 (2000): 1208-1233.
Post #224:
This thread is getting really stupid and ignorant.
Ad hominem will not help your case.
Post #224:
Second, that has little to do with this thread except more misogynist thought against women.
Many words, like “misogyny,” are misused/abused. The word “misogyny” has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable to women.” It starts to sound like mechanical repeating of familiar phrases that are not supported by the dictionary definitions of the words contained therein. Anyhow, since you do not attempt to explain even a tenuous connection between misogyny and this discussion, your (mis/ab)use of that word will be ignored as a red herring.
Post #224:
So older women have less chance of marriage since they are less attractive? first off, a flat out lie
[and others]

Yes, this is the case. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it untrue. Essentially, it’s your opinion versus vast amounts of research.

Beyond that, you have seemingly confused me with the research I am citing. I am only the messenger. What I say or believe has no effect on the results of research - they are what they are.

Anyway, a few more studies that found that attractiveness declines with age:

Buss, D.M., & Schmitt, D.P. (1993). “Sexual strategies theory: An evolutionary perspective on human mating.” Psychological Review, 100, 204–232.

Kwart, Dylan G., Tom Foulsham, and Alan Kingstone. “Age and beauty are in the eye of the beholder.” Perception 41.8 (2012): 925.

Nestor, Mark S., Mark A. Stillman, and Andrew C. Frisina. “Subjective and objective facial attractiveness: ratings and gender differences in objective appraisals of female faces.” The Journal of clinical and aesthetic dermatology 3.12 (2010): 31.

Wade, T. Joel. “Evolutionary theory and self-perception: Sex differences in body esteem predictors of self-perceived physical and sexual attractiveness and self-esteem.” International Journal of Psychology 35.1 (2000): 36-45.

Jones, Doug, and Kim Hill. “Criteria of facial attractiveness in five populations.” Human Nature 4.3 (1993): 271-296.

Zebrowitz, L.A., Olson K., & Hoffman, K. “Stability of babyfaceness and attractiveness across the life span.” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (1993): 64, 453–466.

Schacht, Ryan. “Female and Male Perceptions of Attractiveness: What is Attractive and Why?.” (2005).

In other words:
There may be room for argument about why attractiveness changes with age, but, in spite of a considerable literature devoted to the claim that human sexuality and standards of physical attractiveness are culturally constructed, there does not seem to be any evidence from any society that seriously challenges the proposition that physical attractiveness is perceived to decline from young adulthood to old age, especially for females. “The correlation of female age and sexual attractiveness is so intuitively obvious that ethnographers apparently take it for granted - as they do the bipedalism of the people they study - and the significance of female age tends to be mentioned only in passing, in discussions of something else” (Symons I979:188).
In: Jones, Doug, et al. “Sexual selection, physical attractiveness, and facial neoteny: cross-cultural evidence and implications [and comments and reply].” Current Anthropology (1995): 723-748.

And what about men? Well:
there is clear evidence that physical attractiveness declines with age for both men and women
(Berry, Diane S. “Attractiveness, attraction, and sexual selection: Evolutionary perspectives on the form and function of physical attractiveness.” Advances in experimental social psychology 32 (2000): 273-342)

But:
Results indicate that dominance and the traits associated with it predict men’s mating success, but attractiveness and the traits associated with it do not.
(Wheatley, John R., et al. “Quantifying the strength and form of sexual selection on men’s traits.” (2013))

Again:
male mate value (the total value of the characteristics that an individual possesses in terms of the potential contribution to his or her mate’s reproductive success) is better predicted by social status and economic resources, whereas women’s mate value hinges on signals conveyed by their physical appearance.
(Waynforth, David. “Mate choice trade-offs and women’s preference for physically attractive men.” Human Nature 12.3 (2001): 207-219.)
 
Post #223:
Your statistical observations seem mostly reasonable.
What do you mean by “mostly reasonable”?
Post #223:
Do these statistical realities encourage you to advocate any change in the attitudes that:
  • women should adopt to their education, or
  • that parents should adopt in how they bring up their girls, or
  • that governments should adopt in any “policy” area, such as the availability of higher education to women?
Women can do whatever they want. The only point I’ve really been interested in making is that there are consequences/undesirable outcomes/opportunity costs/etc for every action (and particularly for delaying marriage). If there is to be any change in attitudes or policy, it should be in making it clear that delaying marriage is not always in a woman’s best interests, and can sometimes lead to serious problems (e.g. the usual increased chance of birth complications, miscarriage, child disability, and so forth, but also the fact that they reduce their chances of getting married as they get older [for a range of reasons]).

Some European countries (e.g. Denmark) have allowed women to better balance between career and family by changing/improving laws on maternity leave (for example). Scandinavian countries also have very generous paid childcare and lengthy parental leaves (at the cost of high taxes), and that has seemingly led to a boost in the fertility rates (up to 1.9, and controlling for immigration). It’s still all quite a mess, though. There’s a utility function to education/career pursuit on the part of women and later childbearing, and it usually results in lower fertility (but that could also be contributed to by previous cohorts of women who are pushing later cohorts to delay marriage, see e.g.: Dessy & Habiba, in a previous post).

I don’t see any point (or reason) in changing accessibility/availability of higher education to women, since the fertility decline is likely going to be permanent for educated persons (that is, it is below replacement level - again, see the GSS).

Well, actually, there is one policy point: discourage men and women from pursuing useless degrees (e.g. fine arts) - such degrees rarely provide any benefit in terms of employment and also serve to increase debt and delay marriage. Women pursue degrees that usually pay less to a greater extent than men do, though.
Post #223:
57th Dension did seem to imply the Childless or Old Maid fear.
Please expand on this.

+Sebastian
 
Did you expect people that are opposed to education to be intelligent? Just look at other forms of prejudice and bigotry and those who represent those views. Do the supremacists seem very intelligent?

No, I am not surprised some gave it a five. Let’s fact it. Even though this is a debate, it is almost all one-sided that the blogger has a seriously flawed way of thinking.
Touche.
 
What do you mean by “mostly reasonable”?

Women can do whatever they want. The only point I’ve really been interested in making is that there are consequences/undesirable outcomes/opportunity costs/etc for every action (and particularly for delaying marriage). If there is to be any change in attitudes or policy, it should be in making it clear that delaying marriage is not always in a woman’s best interests, and can sometimes lead to serious problems (e.g. the usual increased chance of birth complications, miscarriage, child disability, and so forth, but also the fact that they reduce their chances of getting married as they get older [for a range of reasons]).

Some European countries (e.g. Denmark) have allowed women to better balance between career and family by changing/improving laws on maternity leave (for example). Scandinavian countries also have very generous paid childcare and lengthy parental leaves (at the cost of high taxes), and that has seemingly led to a boost in the fertility rates (up to 1.9, and controlling for immigration). It’s still all quite a mess, though. There’s a utility function to education/career pursuit on the part of women and later childbearing, and it usually results in lower fertility (but that could also be contributed to by previous cohorts of women who are pushing later cohorts to delay marriage, see e.g.: Dessy & Habiba, in a previous post).

I don’t see any point (or reason) in changing accessibility/availability of higher education to women, since the fertility decline is likely going to be permanent for educated persons (that is, it is below replacement level - again, see the GSS).

Well, actually, there is one policy point: discourage men and women from pursuing useless degrees (e.g. fine arts) - such degrees rarely provide any benefit in terms of employment and also serve to increase debt and delay marriage. Women pursue degrees that usually pay less to a greater extent than men do, though.

Please expand on this.

+Sebastian
May I ask why you keep removing the posters’ names from their responses?
 
What do you mean by “mostly reasonable”?

Women can do whatever they want. The only point I’ve really been interested in making is that there are consequences/undesirable outcomes/opportunity costs/etc for every action (and particularly for delaying marriage). If there is to be any change in attitudes or policy, it should be in making it clear that delaying marriage is not always in a woman’s best interests, and can sometimes lead to serious problems (e.g. the usual increased chance of birth complications, miscarriage, child disability, and so forth, but also the fact that they reduce their chances of getting married as they get older [for a range of reasons]).

Some European countries (e.g. Denmark) have allowed women to better balance between career and family by changing/improving laws on maternity leave (for example). Scandinavian countries also have very generous paid childcare and lengthy parental leaves (at the cost of high taxes), and that has seemingly led to a boost in the fertility rates (up to 1.9, and controlling for immigration). It’s still all quite a mess, though. There’s a utility function to education/career pursuit on the part of women and later childbearing, and it usually results in lower fertility (but that could also be contributed to by previous cohorts of women who are pushing later cohorts to delay marriage, see e.g.: Dessy & Habiba, in a previous post).

I don’t see any point (or reason) in changing accessibility/availability of higher education to women, since the fertility decline is likely going to be permanent for educated persons (that is, it is below replacement level - again, see the GSS).

Well, actually, there is one policy point: discourage men and women from pursuing useless degrees (e.g. fine arts) - such degrees rarely provide any benefit in terms of employment and also serve to increase debt and delay marriage. Women pursue degrees that usually pay less to a greater extent than men do, though.

Please expand on this.

+Sebastian
57D,

Do you not know how quote posts?
 
I don’t think he understands how to actually quote a post.
57th dimension: there is a little icon at the bottom right of each post that says “QUOTE”. Click on that, and then you can respond appropriately.

Very simple. 👍

You can even use the multiquote feature, which allows you to click on several responses, and they will all appear in your comment. This is the icon with the quotation mark and + sign.
 
Posting only the post #s means extra seconds of work for us, as we have to scroll back through the thread to find out who said what. I don’t have extra seconds. Most of us don’t.

Please keep in mind that many of us have been involved with CAF for years, and we know (in an online sense) the other posters and have a general idea of their worldviews. E.g., I happen to be a “fan” of EasterJoy and respect almost everything she says in these forums. If you are commenting on her opinions, I would be inclined to question your posts rather than hers.
May I ask why you keep removing the posters’ names from their responses?
I’m going to discuss ideas, regardless of who they come from. Your perception of an idea should not be affected by who it comes from - it should be perceived (and evaluated) on its own merits.

+Sebastian
 
I’m going to discuss ideas, regardless of who they come from. Your perception of an idea should not be effected by who it comes from - it should be perceived (and evaluated) on its own merits.

+Sebastian
Speaking for myself, I do not want you to keep the poster’s name because my response is affected (not effected, BTW) by the author.

I ask you to do this for several reasons:
  • authorship of each post ought to be quite clear
  • if I want to go back to see the original post, it’s easier if you post in the normative way.
  • giving the author’s name gives context to the discussion
  • it’s the correct way to post here.
Please do not make any false assumptions about why I request that you post in the normative fashion.

Thanks.
 
57D,

Do you not know how quote posts?
I don’t think he understands how to actually quote a post.
57th dimension: there is a little icon at the bottom right of each post that says “QUOTE”. Click on that, and then you can respond appropriately.

Very simple. 👍

You can even use the multiquote feature, which allows you to click on several responses, and they will all appear in your comment. This is the icon with the quotation mark and + sign.
I do in fact know how to quote posts, thanks (parts of the forum software are actually written by me).

My reason for doing so is in my previous post.

Now: please discuss the ideas and data presented, rather than making assumptions, relying on ad hominems, and simply going off-topic.

+Sebastian

P.S. JustPink: why, might I ask, are you so interested in whether I know how to quote posts or not? Frankly, it seems to be an extension of your almost sole reliance on ad hominems in this thread. Please focus on the ideas, rather than the people.
 
affected (not effected, BTW) by the author.
Why is it that discussions that focus on people rather than ideas, and assumptions rather than properly supported responses, seem so much more likely to have the type of response as the above? You concern yourself with a vs. e, but ignore nearly everything else. I think I’ve found a good test for such discussions.
Please do not make any false assumptions about why I request that you post in the normative fashion.
I was responding to Cat, as well.

+Sebastian

P.S. There are other typos in this thread of mine, and I am well aware of them. Thanks.
 
I don’t think so. :nope:

You sound young. Are you still in college?
If you cannot discuss the points being made, then please don’t respond at all.

+Sebastian

P.S. Your above comment is an ad hominem. Please stop using those.
 
This guy’s thinking is inline with fundamental christians who do the protection under your father thing. If I didn’t go to college I wouldn’t have joined the church and I would have stayed living in a sheltered bubble with a very narcissistic point of view.
 
I do in fact know how to quote posts, thanks (parts of the forum software are actually written by me).

My reason for doing so is in my previous post.

Now: please discuss the ideas and data presented, rather than making assumptions, relying on ad hominems, and simply going off-topic.

+Sebastian

P.S. JustPink: why, might I ask, are you so interested in whether I know how to quote posts or not? Frankly, it seems to be an extension of your almost sole reliance on ad hominems in this thread. Please focus on the ideas, rather than the people.
If you know how to correctly quote posts, then one must wonder why in the world you would deliberately cut out the person’s name as well as the link that takes us to the post you quoted. Especially after it was requested of you to quote correctly by several people. Assuming that you simply did not know how to do it was the most charitable assumption I could make as to why you were posting in that fashion. The CCC says we must always assume the best, and so I was trying to follow suit.
 
I was responding to Cat, as well.

+Sebastian
Aaaand that’s why you need to start posting in the normative way.

If you’re going to use the multi-quote feature then your response is understood to be directed at all the posters you’ve included. 🤷
 
A woman’s independence begins with her own money.

She who waits for her knight, cleans up after his horse.

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.

This article is beyond ridiculous. :rolleyes:
:yup:
 
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