Skeptic Arguments Against the Shroud of Turin's Authenticity

[StrawberryJam]

Because it can’t be. Even if it were proven to be the correct age, it can never be proven that the thing was ever wrapped around Him.

ICXC NIKA

Took the words right from my mouth.
A sensible approach.

 

[GEddie]

Catholic saints approved writings are usually pretty good sources of info.

Yes,I have heard that argument before about the wrist being called part of the hand,but that does not account for the mystics visions stating the nails were placed in His palms.

It could still go in the palm and out the back of the wrist, as shown on the shroud. We cannot tell, as the shroud shows only the back of the hands.

 

[cjforJesus]

Unless Jesus was also tied to the cross in addition to nails being driven through his hands, the nails had to have been in his wrists. He was too heavy to be able to hang from his hands.

Yes,that is aslo what was written,that he was bound by ropes also.

I just am fascinated by this holy phenomena,also the stigmatized statue of Mary at Akita had the wounds in her hand though they were in the shape of a cross I believe.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Dumb question from me,

But, no one has to believe this right? And, furthermore- we don’t have enough evidence to do so. So, is there even a point to looking for signs and wonders?

 

[roveau]

Unless Jesus was also tied to the cross in addition to nails being driven through his hands, the nails had to have been in his wrists. He was too heavy to be able to hang from his hands.

No-one has been able to point out who did the study to prove that the hands could not withstand the nails holding the bodyweight. Is that study verifiable? or is it just people doing documentaries saying that over and over again.

The tendons and muscles in the hands are pretty tough, I think they could hold bodyweight with those square shafted nails they had in Roman times. Anyway, say that the muscles and tendons could not hold the weight of a slim 33 year old man, all you’d have to do was make sure that the nail went through the base of the hand where the finger bones cluster together - that would have to stop tearing due to weight.

Also some depictions of the crucifiction also show the weight of Christ being held up by a wedge shaped piece of wood where Christ’s feet were nailed onto.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Dumb question from me,

But, no one has to believe this right? And, furthermore- we don’t have enough evidence to do so. So, is there even a point to looking for signs and wonders?

 

[roveau]

It’s certainly not required belief by the Church. It’s not mentioned by the early Church Fathers and a shroud with an imprint of Chirst is not mentioned in the New Testament.

 

[Pieman333272]

Dumb question from me,

But, no one has to believe this right? And, furthermore- we don’t have enough evidence to do so. So, is there even a point to looking for signs and wonders?

Well, its fun! And a lot choose to believe it - myself included. You (and GEddie) make a good point, but if we could trace it to that time and to the Israel area, and taking note of the nature of the image, it would be most probable that it is the Burial Shroud of Jesus.

 

[GEddie]

Well, its fun! And a lot choose to believe it - myself included. You (and GEddie) make a good point, but if we could trace it to that time and to the Israel area, and taking note of the nature of the image, it would be most probable that it is the Burial Shroud of Jesus.

Actually it’s pretty much established that the cloth has been to Israel, most likely Jerusalem, as it is loaded with pollens that occur only there and in North Africa, etc. Pollens were not discovered ante 1357, so no Mediaeval artist would take his opus there to get it properly pollinated. And it hasn’t been to the Middle East since its known provenance.

The age is a lot more troublesome, due to C14 tests that yield a much younger age. But there are questions about the portions used for the tests, which were damaged by fire in 1532 and repaired with (of course) much newer material.

But all science can give us is a probability. How can you prove rigorously that a cloth or fabric was ever wrapped around someone you have never seen? DNA? Skin cells? Blood? We have none of these for our LORD.

FWIW, I do believe in the Shroud. I have not seen the original, but I have seen full-length transparencies of it that are kept at Hanceville, Ala., as well as the Shroud study center at the Notre-Dame in Jerusalem. I was very much moved by the deep physical suffering that the owner of that body must have gone through, and cannot imagine that an anonymous artist in 1357 would have depicted it so well.

But I understand that science will never prove its provenance, any more than we can see HIM with our natural eyes.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Actually it’s pretty much established that the cloth has been to Israel, most likely Jerusalem, as it is loaded with pollens that occur only there and in North Africa, etc. Pollens were not discovered ante 1357, so no Mediaeval artist would take his opus there to get it properly pollinated. And it hasn’t been to the Middle East since its known provenance.

The age is a lot more troublesome, due to C14 tests that yield a much younger age. But there are questions about the portions used for the tests, which were damaged by fire in 1532 and repaired with (of course) much newer material.

But all science can give us is a probability. How can you prove rigorously that a cloth or fabric was ever wrapped around someone you have never seen? DNA? Skin cells? Blood? We have none of these for our LORD.

FWIW, I do believe in the Shroud. I have not seen the original, but I have seen full-length transparencies of it that are kept at Hanceville, Ala., as well as the Shroud study center at the Notre-Dame in Jerusalem. I was very much moved by the deep physical suffering that the owner of that body must have gone through, and cannot imagine that an anonymous artist in 1357 would have depicted it so well.

But I understand that science will never prove its provenance, any more than we can see HIM with our natural eyes.

ICXC NIKA.

But, it may have a chance to if only you would allow science to have it. You won’t. Why?

 

[Pieman333272]

But, it may have a chance to if only you would allow science to have it. You won’t. Why?

You mean take a Carbon-14 Dating Sample from the image? Well, what if its from the 1st Century, and we just lost a square inch or more of the face?! Seriously, I think the fear is damage to the image. Even if its fake, it says a lot about the suffering of Christ and the dedication of both the man who made it and the model to God. I also saw on a documentary on Discovery Channel that it may be too late to do it again on anywhere but the burnt areas (not the repair patches, the remains under and around them) due to the 2002 Restoration and preservation.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You mean take a Carbon-14 Dating Sample from the image? Well, what if its from the 1st Century, and we just lost a square inch or more of the face?! Seriously, I think the fear is damage to the image. Even if its fake, it says a lot about the suffering of Christ and the dedication of both the man who made it and the model to God. I also saw on a documentary on Discovery Channel that it may be too late to do it again on anywhere but the burnt areas (not the repair patches, the remains under and around them) due to the 2002 Restoration and preservation.

I think the catholic scientists and secular scientists could determine together working together with respect, a way to put this baby to bed if they would only allow it. They won’t allow it, and it frankly makes too darn much money for them to do so. Just like the others found frauds later, Medugorie? Money. That is what it is about. They may decide to give up on it later, after it has run its course- as it surely is by now anyway.

 

[GEddie]

I think the catholic scientists and secular scientists could determine together working together with respect, a way to put this baby to bed if they would only allow it. They won’t allow it, and it frankly makes too darn much money for them to do so. Just like the others found frauds later, Medugorie? Money. That is what it is about. They may decide to give up on it later, after it has run its course- as it surely is by now anyway.

You know it is disallowed to talk about unapproved apparitions on this BBS. So please don’t. The Shroud is too interesting a topic to get the thread shut down early.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

You mean take a Carbon-14 Dating Sample from the image? Well, what if its from the 1st Century, and we just lost a square inch or more of the face?!

Why so much area, and why off the face? Any nonburned area, for example to either side of the head or lower legs, would serve.

Seriously, I think the fear is damage to the image. Even if its fake, it says a lot about the suffering of Christ and the dedication of both the man who made it and the model to God. I also saw on a documentary on Discovery Channel **that it may be too late to do it again on anywhere but the burnt areas **(not the repair patches, the remains under and around them) due to the 2002 Restoration and preservation.

I didn’t see this; why would it be “too late”?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Pieman333272]

Why so much area, and why off the face? Any nonburned area, for example to either side of the head or lower legs, would serve.

It needs to be a Square inch or more because it needs to be C-14 dated by at least 2 labs to get a definite, unbiased answer. I realized only now I said “face” I guess it could be any part of the image, bu the face is almost certainly the least contaminated/changed.

I didn’t see this; why would it be “too late”?

In the documentary, at the end it mentions that the Shroud has been preserved, which if I remember correctly began in the 1990’s, (sorry, looking back, I saw it was before the 2002 restoration) using plant chemicals. It didn’t say when, but reading my report I can see that’s where I got it from. Because they use PLANT based chemicals, it can affect the Carbon Dating on the Shroud, as plants, after all, can be C-14 Dated.

 

[Pieman333272]

I think the catholic scientists and secular scientists could determine together working together with respect, a way to put this baby to bed if they would only allow it. They won’t allow it, and it frankly makes too darn much money for them to do so. Just like the others found frauds later, Medugorie? Money. That is what it is about. They may decide to give up on it later, after it has run its course- as it surely is by now anyway.

Wrong. The Shroud is still genuinely being debated on both sides with 100% Zeal. And if any theory’s being “put to bed”, its the one that states the Shroud is not authentic. One look at the evidence from an neutral perspective, as I did, will show you. Just recently, I found on Google Jesus’ Death Certificate may be imprinted on the Shroud. The Carbon Dating has been debunked. The blood is real, and we can theoretically trace its history back to at least 700 AD, and possibly to the time of Christ if we accept the “Image of Edessa” theory. Leonardo da Vinci certainly didn’t paint it, it has been debunked time and again. If the Shroud is authentic, it does prove the resurrection, contrary to some German Conspiracy Theorists’ ideas. The Shroud either spent time in Jerusalem or the faker ingeniously planted the exact right type of pollen in just the right areas on the Shroud. The body is anatomically correct, and the injuries, and marks on the man are in accordance with the Gospels, and the Gospels’ setting. Just some facts for you to digest.

 

[GEddie]

It needs to be a Square inch or more because it needs to be C-14 dated by at least 2 labs to get a definite, unbiased answer. I realized only now I said “face” I guess it could be any part of the image, bu the face is almost certainly the least contaminated/changed.

They would be dating the cloth, not the image. The 1" of cloth need not be on the body image at all. The nonimaged area to either side would be adequate, other than the area of the shoulders or body sides, which were burnt in 1532; if no other factors applied.

In the documentary, at the end it mentions that the Shroud has been preserved, which if I remember correctly began in the 1990’s, (sorry, looking back, I saw it was before the 2002 restoration) using plant chemicals. It didn’t say when, but reading my report I can see that’s where I got it from. Because they use PLANT based chemicals, it can affect the Carbon Dating on the Shroud, as plants, after all, can be C-14 Dated.

Ok, I get it. Thx. So if this is accurate, the issue of further C14 would be moot, in any case.

One more reason why science will never tie the Shroud with certainty to our LORD.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Pieman333272]

They would be dating the cloth, not the image. The 1" of cloth need not be on the body image at all. The nonimaged area to either side would be adequate, other than the area of the shoulders or body sides, which were burnt in 1532; if no other factors applied.

Ok, I get it. Thx. So if this is accurate, the issue of further C14 would be moot, in any case.

One more reason why science will never tie the Shroud with certainty to our LORD.

ICXC NIKA

I have to agree with the documentary that C-14 dating the burnt areas under the repair patches is worth a try. Sine they’re covered anyway, no loss if its authentic to the Chruch!

 

[Pieman333272]

Anyone have more objections? I’d love to keep debating!!!

 

[StrawberryJam]

I have to agree with the documentary that C-14 dating the burnt areas under the repair patches is worth a try. Sine they’re covered anyway, no loss if its authentic to the Chruch!

Carbon dating is your thing with this? That explains why you don’t understand how useless that method is for this.