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PRmerger
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Who disagrees with *what *theory? That some of the most erudite and educated folks can be duped into believing some of most gaga, lala nonsensical ideas?
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icamhif
Guest
The cognitive dissonance theory.
Appeal to ridicule is not at all helpful. You can learn from people like Aloysium and Randy. They address my points constructively.
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PRmerger
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Some ideas *are *ridiculous, and stating that they are is indeed the most helpful thing that I can do.
Or are you of the opinion that all ideas are have equal merit?
“I believe that the MMR vaccine causes toddlers to sprout red hair!” has the same merit as “I believe that vaccines are the most important health care prevention we can give our children”?
Then you have your answer and there’s nothing more you need to address with me.
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OneSheep
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Thank you, PRmerger, for calling to our attention that article. I have a lot of respect for Michael Shermer, and there is much to be said for his open-mindedness in light of the fact that he is more of a “convert” to agnosticism. As you know, converts can be a little hard on their previous ideologies or lack of such.
It is perfectly acceptable for a scientist to “let go” when encountering a phenomenon or occurrence that cannot be repeated. Sure, we all want to know the answers and we would love to be able to set up an experiment, for example, with God present and God absent. Problem is: the latter is impossible, at least from the Christian perspective.
How does one begin such an investigation? Get married again?
In the mean time, the article is so candid, how could anyone feel the least bit of negativity toward this man? Everyone has their own path.
Thanks again!!!
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icamhif
Guest
No
Ridicule only works if you elaborate on how the argument is ridiculous. Simply asserting that it’s ridiculous without support is a fallacy.
See here: logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/42-appeal-to-ridicule
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PRmerger
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Err… no.
Some arguments are ridiculous on their own merit.
I am 100% certain that you do not need any “support” for the statement, “It is absolutely ridiculous to assert that the MMR vaccine causes toddlers to have red hair.”
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icamhif
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Okay, fair enough, but if you are comparing the vaccine analogy to the cognitive dissonance theory, then you’ve lost me. In many cases, “ridiculousness” is a matter of perspective.
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PRmerger
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All I’m doing is refuting your assertions, icam.
I have made no statement, at all, about cognitive dissonance theory.
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icamhif
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That’s the point! You have not at all attempted to refute the cognitive dissonance theory, but just said “that’s ridiculous.” That tactic only works for those who are already convinced that the theory is false, not for those who are looking for a sound refutation.
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PRmerger
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Yes. He is an open-minded (typically), charitable, funny and generally likeable guy.
Yes, but I don’t think he can be counted as representative as a convert from Catholicism. I think his background was in loose evangelicalism.
I absolutely disagree with you here.
The sine qua non of scientists is that phenomena beg for explanation.
To be complacent with such a shocking phenomenon is to be quite anti-science.
And this is most egregious given the way that Shermer makes his living.
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icamhif
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Technically, I wouldn’t call using the phrase “in your imagination” name-calling, or even an ad-hominem…just a bit polemical. There is a temptation to label anything that sounds mean as an ad-hominem, but that doesn’t change its formal definition.
That said, I don’t blame you for feeling offended. Polemics are, more often than not, very unnecessary.
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PRmerger
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I have no obligation to accept or refute cognitive dissonance theory on this thread, icam.
You are a latecomer to this thread, (and welcome to it, of course!) but I think you may be erroneously conflating some of the different tributaries.
What I stated was ridiculous was the idea that Peter, the head apostle and founder of the CC in Rome, was executed not for his Christian beliefs but for burning Rome.
#gagalalanonsense
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icamhif
Guest
Call me Ike.
The fact that Peter did not burn Rome is not the point; Nero believed it, and his erreneous belief in that can be an alternate hypothesis as to why Peter was executed.
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PRmerger
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Another alternate hypothesis is that aliens were involved.
This discussion reminds me of the oft cited here on the CAFs “Miracle of the Sharing” regarding the story of Jesus and the Multiplication of the Loaves.
The alternate hypothesis that is often asserted is: it wasn’t a miracle that Jesus did of making something from nothing but rather the “miracle” was that he got stingy people to share.
#alsogagalalanonsense
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Pallas_Athene
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That is “strange” from the mouth of someone who argued that “ALL claims must be investigated by science”.
But ALL claims must be examined by science… even if they are ridiculous “on their own merit”.
It does not happen too frequently that someone contradicts herself within a few pages. This example is “priceless”. (For everything else there is MasterCard)
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PRmerger
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That is what is required by Science Alone advocates, isn’t it?
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Pallas_Athene
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It was only a different phrase for “it is your opinion only”.
One must be careful in phrasing opposition, it can be misconstrued as “uncharitable”. That is why I try to use simple and neutral phrases like “this is irrational”, or “this is incorrect”, or “it is only your view” - instead of “you are a drooling idiot”, which I would love to say sometimes. Anyhow, thank you for pointing it out - not that I expect it to have any effect on certain posters. (Is this also an ad hominem? I wonder.)
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icamhif
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If you are comparing the alien hypothesis to the hypothesis that Nero executed Peter by making him a scapegoat for the Roman fire (not for Peter’s belief in the Resurrection), then you’ve lost me. The latter sounds much more tenable and falsifiable.
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Pallas_Athene
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No, it is NOT. It is what YOU said. No advocate of science will endorse allocating money, time and resources for ridiculous claims or “ideas”, as you said. I explicitly asked if YOU were in favor of investigating ALL claims, and you explicitly answer a resounding “YES”. Only a few pages back…
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icamhif
Guest
Touché
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