Skeptics...question for you

[john330]

Can anyone adequately debunk the Miracle of the Sun?

Will sit back and listen to both sides. I would like to believe it, but what if it is one of the most elaborate hoaxes in history? I ask this in the philosophy forum because it doesn’t fit anywhere else and I believe there are many scientific minds here who may like to opine.

 

[JackVk]

One thing to keep in mind: The Miracle of the Sun is connected to Our Lady of Fatima, a private revelation. The Vatican has declared the apparitions at Fatima “worthy of belief”, but it is not public revelation, which ended with John the Apostle, and therefore is not required for Catholics to believe (despite what some well-meaning but misguided rad-trads may say )

 

[john330]

One thing to keep in mind: The Miracle of the Sun is connected to Our Lady of Fatima, a private revelation. The Vatican has declared the apparitions at Fatima “worthy of belief”, but it is not public revelation, which ended with John the Apostle, and therefore is not required for Catholics to believe (despite what some well-meaning but misguided rad-trads may say )

Very true

 

[ngill09]

I think the fact that no one else in the rest of the world noticed that the sun was dancing around and changing colors is notable. What exactly is the claim, here?

 

[tonyrey]

I think the fact that no one else in the rest of the world noticed that the sun was dancing around and changing colors is notable. What exactly is the claim, here?

That thousands of people including sceptics had a scientifically inexplicable vision.

 

[odile53]

That thousands of people including sceptics had a scientifically inexplicable vision.

That the vision was “private” for several thousand people in the vicinity, including skeptics and nonbelievers. It wasn’t generalized, and seen elsewhere in the world.

A private club, such as a country club, can have a party that includes hundreds of people, yet it’s still private, in that the public at large cannot attend the party. The scientifically inexplicable phenomenon of the sun might have been a private revelation by Mary targeted at the atheistic and fascist-leaning Portuguese government officials, as well as a call to repentance of sins by the faithful in attendance.

However, the lessons of Fatima (especially the need to repent of sin and pray for world peace) are universally applicable.

 

[inocente]

Can anyone adequately debunk the Miracle of the Sun?

Yes. It supposedly took place on 13 October 1917, in what was then a sleepy backwater in Portugal.

Meanwhile thousands were dying not far away on the battlefields of the First World War (the first battle of Passchendaele was the day before).

God could have stopped the slaughter by creating the miracle over the battlefield where all the soldiers would have seen it. Instead we’re supposed to believe He callously chose a spot were His pretty little light show had no chance of interrupting the slaughter.

We’re asked to believe God was more interested in making Fátima a tourist spot than helping those in the trenches, which is demeaning both to their memory and to God.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Can anyone adequately debunk the Miracle of the Sun?

From the previous discussions that have occurred on this forum about the alleged miracle (like this one) there wasn’t clarity on what is said to happen, let alone if it really happened or not. There’s many other threads on it as well.

 

[john330]

From the previous discussions that have occurred on this forum about the alleged miracle (like this one) there wasn’t clarity on what is said to happen, let alone if it really happened or not. There’s many other threads on it as well.

I am very sorry if this is a frequently recurring thread. I do appreciate links to past discussions, though.

Question: Was the technology available in 1917 to pull off a hoax of this caliber?

 

[ngill09]

I am very sorry if this is a frequently recurring thread. I do appreciate links to past discussions, though.

Question: Was the technology available in 1917 to pull off a hoax of this caliber?

I don’t think anyone thinks that technology was used, I think the more common skeptical explanation is a sort of “people saw what they wanted to see” plus looking into the sun can cause you to see weird things. You’d be amazed at what people will think they saw if prompted by the right stimuli.

I’d chalk it up to about the same as mass UFO sightings, of which there are a surprising amount.

 

[ccmnxc]

I think the fact that no one else in the rest of the world noticed that the sun was dancing around and changing colors is notable. What exactly is the claim, here?

It rather seems like a triviality for God to localize a miracle since if He exists, He can suspend the laws of nature. Also, some (many?) believe that it was more of a mass vision that people had.

Yes. It supposedly took place on 13 October 1917, in what was then a sleepy backwater in Portugal.

Meanwhile thousands were dying not far away on the battlefields of the First World War (the first battle of Passchendaele was the day before).

God could have stopped the slaughter by creating the miracle over the battlefield where all the soldiers would have seen it. Instead we’re supposed to believe He callously chose a spot were His pretty little light show had no chance of interrupting the slaughter.

We’re asked to believe God was more interested in making Fátima a tourist spot than helping those in the trenches, which is demeaning both to their memory and to God.

I am very much reminded of the verse that says something along the lines of, “You think not like God, but like men.” I find this very akin to the problem of suffering. You list yourself as Baptist, so obviously that isn’t a convincing enough argument to sway you to atheism. Plus, Mary was trying to communicate a message instead of simply performing a miracle. How will a soldier get all the other soldiers and his commanders to stop fighting to watch a miracle. Probably wouldn’t happen. They’d think he had shell-shock and send him away. Furthermore, the story would have more difficulty getting out since many of the soldiers would end up dying before they could tell the story to someone who hadn’t already heard about it. I don’t think this is a plausible scenario.

 

[ccmnxc]

I don’t think anyone thinks that technology was used, I think the more common skeptical explanation is a sort of “people saw what they wanted to see” plus looking into the sun can cause you to see weird things. You’d be amazed at what people will think they saw if prompted by the right stimuli.

I’d chalk it up to about the same as mass UFO sightings, of which there are a surprising amount.

With regards to the seeing what they wanted to see comment, a few points:
a) There were skeptics in the crowd
b) People who weren’t in the crowd and may not have heard about what was going to happen saw it (people in nearby fields and towns)
c) There was little to no indication that it would be the sun that was the focus of the miracle, so one probably won’t see a miracle they didn’t already conceive of beforehand.
d) Most people, even believers, are probably not predisposed to believing there will be a miracle on the words of children. I know that I, myself would be rather skeptical if someone predicted a miracle.

As far as the eyes having issues due to staring at the sun, also a couple of points:
a) Accounts indicate that the sun was behind dark, heavy rainclouds until right before the miracle.
b) Even if we assume that is wrong, as I stated earlier, there was really no indication that the sun would be the focal point of the miracle. I see no reason for thousands of people to be staring at the sun for several minutes (it takes awhile before the optical illusions occur due to staring at the sun) if there was prior reason to stare at it anyways.

 

[john330]

I don’t think anyone thinks that technology was used, I think the more common skeptical explanation is a sort of “people saw what they wanted to see” plus looking into the sun can cause you to see weird things. You’d be amazed at what people will think they saw if prompted by the right stimuli.

I’d chalk it up to about the same as mass UFO sightings, of which there are a surprising amount.

Now “the staring at the sun hypothesis” is possible. However, I can’t even look at the sun for 2 seconds. Not in unclouded view. But it is still possible.

The fact that people miles away saw it indicates (if it is true that people miles away saw it) is that it was not the result of people staring at the sun for prolonged periods. People not in attendance wouldn’t have known to look at the sun. So if this is true, then this hypothesis should not be true.

The communist newspaper reporting the event seems to give the event some credibility. Did the newspaper report that the muddy ground was dried, as well as people’s clothing? If this was the account of a nonchristian observer, then obviously there was more at work here than a collective hallucination or bleaching of retinas. The only truly possible mechanism besides God, would have to be a machine or something like a bomb. For the “miracle” to be visible 40 km (whatever the distance) away would mean that this would have to be some enormous political/military hoax. Some form of technology would have to be used to create the display, but without the possibility of harming civilians. So, did this technology exist, or not in 1917? And who would have had the money for its innovation?

If this question cannot be answered, then the miracle, IMO, cannot be debunked. This still doesn’t mean it’s legit, just that it can’t be debunked presently

 

[ngill09]

Now “the staring at the sun hypothesis” is possible. However, I can’t even look at the sun for 2 seconds. Not in unclouded view. But it is still possible.

The fact that people miles away saw it indicates (if it is true that people miles away saw it) is that it was not the result of people staring at the sun for prolonged periods. People not in attendance wouldn’t have known to look at the sun. So if this is true, then this hypothesis should not be true.

The communist newspaper reporting the event seems to give the event some credibility. Did the newspaper report that the muddy ground was dried, as well as people’s clothing? If this was the account of a nonchristian observer, then obviously there was more at work here than a collective hallucination or bleaching of retinas. The only truly possible mechanism besides God, would have to be a machine or something like a bomb. For the “miracle” to be visible 40 km (whatever the distance) away would mean that this would have to be some enormous political/military hoax. Some form of technology would have to be used to create the display, but without the possibility of harming civilians. So, did this technology exist, or not in 1917? And who would have had the money for its innovation?

If this question cannot be answered, then the miracle, IMO, cannot be debunked. This still doesn’t mean it’s legit, just that it can’t be debunked presently

If it was only a vision, why would the ground and clothing be dried? If it was not a vision and the sun was actually dancing around, then people in other places in the world would have noticed.

 

[Love4All]

Yes. It supposedly took place on 13 October 1917, in what was then a sleepy backwater in Portugal.

Meanwhile thousands were dying not far away on the battlefields of the First World War (the first battle of Passchendaele was the day before).

God could have stopped the slaughter by creating the miracle over the battlefield where all the soldiers would have seen it. Instead we’re supposed to believe He callously chose a spot were His pretty little light show had no chance of interrupting the slaughter.

We’re asked to believe God was more interested in making Fátima a tourist spot than helping those in the trenches, which is demeaning both to their memory and to God.

Actually, the purpose of the Fatima revelation was stated explicitly by Our Blessed Mother: “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.” Since that devotion now exists in the world, it seems God made the right choices.

 

[john330]

If it was only a vision, why would the ground and clothing be dried? If it was not a vision and the sun was actually dancing around, then people in other places in the world would have noticed.

This is why I posit the “machine hypothesis”. It clearly wasn’t the actual sun. The Catholic position on this event has always been that it was a localized event, that god effected it only for hose in attendance. However, if there were some technology available to fake the event, to make the sun appear to whirl in the sky, turn colors, leave its place in the sky, dry the ground and people’s clothing, then this would satisfy all grounds and effectively debunk the miracle. We have the technology now to accomplish all these feats, but did such technology exist in 1917?

 

[ngill09]

This is why I posit the “machine hypothesis”. It clearly wasn’t the actual sun. The Catholic position on this event has always been that it was a localized event, that god effected it only for hose in attendance. However, if there were some technology available to fake the event, to make the sun appear to whirl in the sky, turn colors, leave its place in the sky, dry the ground and people’s clothing, then this would satisfy all grounds and effectively debunk the miracle. We have the technology now to accomplish all these feats, but did such technology exist in 1917?

How do you move the sun only for people in a local area?

 

[Ion]

Actually, the purpose of the Fatima revelation was stated explicitly by Our Blessed Mother: “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.” Since that devotion now exists in the world, it seems God made the right choices.

They were free to stop the slaughter. Hardened hearths …

 

[ccmnxc]

If it was only a vision, why would the ground and clothing be dried? If it was not a vision and the sun was actually dancing around, then people in other places in the world would have noticed.

If it wasn’t the sun, the people certainly seemed to think it was. The drying present further proof (if that was at all necessary) of the fact that they had just witnessed a miracle that had a physical effect on them and the surroundings. It God so desired the ground to dry, even if it wasn’t the sun, then I don’t think that would be a problem for Him.

How do you move the sun only for people in a local area?

Warping of space-time ?
It seems like any logically possible answer would work (though obviously they cannot all be right).

 

[Love4All]

They were free to stop the slaughter. Hardened hearths …

“They” who? You mean, the nations involved in the war, right?