Skip Sunday Mass for sake of enlightened women?

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Brickmaker said:
Or perhaps they are interested in being women according to their own experience of being female and not according to how a male-dominated Church defines them?
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So in order to be fulfilled as a woman according to their understanding they have to be a priestess, not have their religious orders questioned and change God from the masculine pronoun that HE HIMSELF prefers to a feminine pronoun among other things? If that’s what it takes for those women to be fulfilled as women than I feel sorry for them.

Again I will say it, these women are not interested in being women according to God’s definition. As Jesus said “not my will but your will be done.” As the Blessed Mother stated “let it be done to me according to your word.” What God wants should matter more than what we want. Humility and submission to God’s will are more important than our own personal desires.
 
Corki said:
No “or” required.

If these women were interested in being authentic Catholic women, they could do everything you suggest without going down the path of dissent. Now, they are just looking for a religion based on their own experience instead of Catholicism.
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Authentic Catholic women as defined by who? You? Me? The male hierarchy? What makes any male an authority on what it means to be female let alone female and Catholic?

Is there something wrong in women speaking out about their experience of being Catholic? About their spiritual lives?

How come we always hear about the ‘role of women’ in the Church, and never about the role of men? Are men the default and women some inconvenient hangers on for whom ‘roles’ have to be found?

I’ve been happily married for almost 40 years now. I attribute at least some of that happiness to learning at an early stage not to assume that my wife will always see things as I see them. She brings a particular perspective to our life together, one I’ve grown to value and appreciate and respect. What’s wrong with the Church doing the same?
 
Brickmaker said:
Authentic Catholic women as defined by who? You? Me? The male hierarchy? What makes any male an authority on what it means to be female let alone female and Catholic?

Is there something wrong in women speaking out about their experience of being Catholic? About their spiritual lives?

How come we always hear about the ‘role of women’ in the Church, and never about the role of men? Are men the default and women some inconvenient hangers on for whom ‘roles’ have to be found?

I’ve been happily married for almost 40 years now. I attribute at least some of that happiness to learning at an early stage not to assume that my wife will always see things as I see them. She brings a particular perspective to our life together, one I’ve grown to value and appreciate and respect. What’s wrong with the Church doing the same?
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I fear that you (and your wife) have been living on a desserted island for the last 40 years. Otherwise, you would have noticed the huge pains the Church has taken to listen to and account for the unique perspective of women in the Church. MULIERIS DIGNITATEM is a good place to start to get up to speed. 😉
 
Corki said:
I fear that you (and your wife) have been living on a desserted island for the last 40 years. Otherwise, you would have noticed the huge pains the Church has taken to listen to and account for the unique perspective of women in the Church. MULIERIS DIGNITATEM is a good place to start to get up to speed. 😉
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I’ve read it. So has my wife. Are women supposed to be grateful that 2000 years after Jesus walked the earth, the Church finally woke up to the fact that it hadn’t been treating them as Jesus treated them? I didn’t notice that there was much ‘listening’ in it, to be honest, but then listening seems to me to be what women, not men, do best. Guess they’ve had more practice. (OK, even my wife will have words with me over that :p)

What Mulieris Dignitatem says doesn’t seem to have penetrated the thinking of bishops, clergy though. Or laymen either. Not once have I ever heard Mulieris Dignitatem mentioned in a homily, even on a Marian feast day, never even a thought about how we might give it practical effect.
 
Brickmaker said:
I’ve read it. So has my wife. Are women supposed to be grateful that 2000 years after Jesus walked the earth, the Church finally woke up to the fact that it hadn’t been treating them as Jesus treated them? I didn’t notice that there was much ‘listening’ in it, to be honest, but then listening seems to me to be what women, not men, do best. Guess they’ve had more practice. (OK, even my wife will have words with me over that :p)

What Mulieris Dignitatem says doesn’t seem to have penetrated the thinking of bishops, clergy though. Or laymen either. Not once have I ever heard Mulieris Dignitatem mentioned in a homily, even on a Marian feast day, never even a thought about how we might give it practical effect.
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Sorry to hear that. Since I don’t live on your desserted island, I have heard MD mentioned many times in homilies and in addresses by those very Bishops and clergymen you mention. 😉 Not on a Marian feast that I can recall. I can’t see how it would be appropriate since it’s about women in the modern world more than about the Mother of God.

I’ve just been appointed to another leadership position in my parish. The leaders of most of the ministries, most of the parish council, most of the finance council and all the parish employees are women. Our diocese has many knowledgable and committed women in positions of influence and authority.

Could we do more? Sure. But to deny that progress is being made or that Church teaching must be abandoned in the pursuit of change is just wrong-headed in my opinion. Those women in Portland seem to be eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If they got what they are asking for, it wouldn’t be the Catholic Church anymore. 😦
 
Corki said:
Sorry to hear that. Since I don’t live on your desserted island, I have heard MD mentioned many times in homilies and in addresses by those very Bishops and clergymen you mention. 😉 Not on a Marian feast that I can recall. I can’t see how it would be appropriate since it’s about women in the modern world more than about the Mother of God.

I’ve just been appointed to another leadership position in my parish. The leaders of most of the ministries, most of the parish council, most of the finance council and all the parish employees are women. Our diocese has many knowledgable and committed women in positions of influence and authority.

Could we do more? Sure. But to deny that progress is being made or that Church teaching must be abandoned in the pursuit of change is just wrong-headed in my opinion. Those women in Portland seem to be eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. If they got what they are asking for, it wouldn’t be the Catholic Church anymore. 😦
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I’m in a traditional parish: I think our pastor believes that women are a different and lesser species.
BTW - what is a ‘desserted’ island? Some kind of sweet trolley?
 
This is why Godless, liberal Portland drives me crazy!!! :mad:

**‘Organizers believe this is the right time to encourage public dialogue, to reassert the spirit of Vatican II, a 1960s council that proposed many changes in the church. Monsignor Charles Lienert, pastor of St. Andrew’s and a supporter of “One Spirit – One Call,” says “at least 50 years of grass root activity” led to the “wonderful renovations” of the second Vatican council.’ **

I wish these people would just go join the Episcopal church-- but they won’t, becausethis is not about “equality;” it’s about a warped craving for POWER, and it’s about destroying beauty and tradition. I believe many of these feminists, liberals, and modernists would feel completely at ease participating in iconocalstic mobs in 16th-century England-- burning sacred art; smashing stained glass; destroying altars and replacing them with wooden “tables;” all in the name of so-called “reform;” in the name of “sweeping away the old accretions” of the supposedly “corrupt and unenlightened” traditional religion. This has happened before, people; there’s nothing new under the sun, no matter how brilliant and original these people think they are.

In my opinion, today’s liberals, especially these deluded ladies and men at this protest, are the intellectual and spiritual descendants of Edward VI, Cromwell, Cranmer and their cronies-- which makes it very ironic that I’m even considering converting from Anglicanism to Catholicism, since the latter seems to be so deeply infiltrated by sanctimonious liberal jerks who are convinced that they know better than 2,000 years of Saints; who are determined to destroy the Church and build a “new and improved” version on the ashes.

Sorry for the long rant, but this particular strain of modernism irks me to no end; it’s the reason I left the Episcopal church; and I live in the aforementioned city which is famed for its ultra-left leanings. And I just read two books on the English so-called reformation which gave me a major case of deja vu.
 
Brickmaker, what exactly does your pastor say & do for you to write: " I think our pastor believes that women are a different and lesser species."? & what exactly would a pastor say & do if he believed women were not different and an equal species?
 
Brickmaker said:
Or perhaps they are interested in being women according to their own experience of being female and not according to how a male-dominated Church defines them?
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Another patriarchal comment. God chose to come to earth as a man. He refers to His father. This sounds precisely like the same old “if we can’t be totally, 100% equal then it’s bad” comment from the National Organization for Women in the 1970s. The Church is not a man-made institution. It was not founded by men. And again, I see the false “power” struggle aspect. The Church is not a corporation either.

God gave men and women the experience of being male or female, not some radical feminist organization.

God bless,
Ed
 
Alex111 said:
This is why Godless, liberal Portland drives me crazy!!! :mad:

**‘Organizers believe this is the right time to encourage public dialogue, to reassert the spirit of Vatican II, a 1960s council that proposed many changes in the church. Monsignor Charles Lienert, pastor of St. Andrew’s and a supporter of “One Spirit – One Call,” says “at least 50 years of grass root activity” led to the “wonderful renovations” of the second Vatican council.’ **

I wish these people would just go join the Episcopal church-- but they won’t, becausethis is not about “equality;” it’s about a warped craving for POWER, and it’s about destroying beauty and tradition. I believe many of these feminists, liberals, and modernists would feel completely at ease participating in iconocalstic mobs in 16th-century England-- burning sacred art; smashing stained glass; destroying altars and replacing them with wooden “tables;” all in the name of so-called “reform;” in the name of “sweeping away the old accretions” of the supposedly “corrupt and unenlightened” traditional religion. This has happened before, people; there’s nothing new under the sun, no matter how brilliant and original these people think they are.

In my opinion, today’s liberals, especially these deluded ladies and men at this protest, are the intellectual and spiritual descendants of Edward VI, Cromwell, Cranmer and their cronies-- which makes it very ironic that I’m even considering converting from Anglicanism to Catholicism, since the latter seems to be so deeply infiltrated by sanctimonious liberal jerks who are convinced that they know better than 2,000 years of Saints; who are determined to destroy the Church and build a “new and improved” version on the ashes.

Sorry for the long rant, but this particular strain of modernism irks me to no end; it’s the reason I left the Episcopal church; and I live in the aforementioned city which is famed for its ultra-left leanings. And I just read two books on the English so-called reformation which gave me a major case of deja vu.
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Good post, but I encourage you to calm down a little. Pope Benedict XVI is slowly, carefully turning things around. I heard a priest on Catholic radio talking about getting rid of guitar Masses and similar nonsense and renewing a spirit of reverence. New priests are getting the full teaching about the Church’s stance against artificial contraception.

Something else I heard on Catholic Radio was an incident where Napolean approached a Cardinal and threatened to destroy the Church. The Cardinal asked him what he was going to do different as opposed to attempts made by some in the Church going back hundreds of years.

You’re right. This is all about POWER, and another word, CONTROL. Just as Western society has been gradually turned into their image and likeness over the last 40 years, the Revolutionaries, with their Che Guevara posters, will be turned out of the city again.

And by the way, Vatican II never even suggested the changes these people revel in.

God bless,
Ed
 
If people don’t accept the Church’s teachings, why don’t they just leave? They can go to the Episcopalians were anything goes…🤷
 
edwest2 said:
God gave men and women the experience of being male or female, not some radical feminist organization
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And, that God intended male and female to compliment each other. The agenda of radical feminists organisations on equality is something that I have come to loathe because they confuse equality with identity and function. If the Church has treated women so unjustly and unfairly, these “enlightened” women ought to read up more on Catholic history to understand that women have not been oppressed at all.

They can start with Our Lady and the female saints. How many men kneel and pray in front of them? They want politics? Let them read up on St Catherine of Sienna together with the Papacy of Gregory and Urban. They want examples of Vatican sanctions on women’s independence and complimentary role to men? Perhaps, they should study and reflect on the lives of St Scholastica, St Claire and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. They want to preach? Look no further than Mother Angelica.

And, when they call for women’s ordination, there is something that these feminists miss by more than a mile. The dignity of women is not lessened in God’s eyes at Mass just because a man consecrates the Holy Eucharist.
 
Rence said:
According to the article, they aren’t advising people to not attend Mass. They are encouraging people to attend the gathering and then attend a different Mass. I’m quite sure there are other Masses available. The gathering is only 90 minutes long. And when people are unhappy, they *should * gather in prayer. I think this is a positive experience for them. I hope many attend (and also attend Mass in the same weekend).
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Since when is a negative bonding in disobedience and rebellion against truth a positive thing? Their Ungodly Rage (a book title by the way, on the Catholic feminist movement within the Church,) is becoming somewhat tiresome and definitely irksome.
 
From the article:
The fact that the Vatican is investigating communities of nuns and sisters in the United States is another sore point. Church leaders say the goal of the investigation is to assess how religious orders are fulfilling their stated missions. But critics suspect the point is to determine whether women are following church teachings.
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WELL…this about says it all…imagine the audacity of the Vatican in wanting religious to follow church teaching! :rolleyes:
 
But… but… if you’re enlightened it’s different, right? This appears to be an attempt to keep the 1960s goals in public view.

Mary, pray for them,

Ed
 
Tigg said:
From the article:

WELL…this about says it all…imagine the audacity of the Vatican in wanting religious to follow church teaching! :rolleyes:
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People need to realize who is in charge within the Church and learn how to be obedient instead of acting like stubborn kids.
 
edwest2 said:
Good post, but I encourage you to calm down a little.
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Thanks…I’m working on it. 🙂
edwest2 said:
Pope Benedict XVI is slowly, carefully turning things around. I heard a priest on Catholic radio talking about getting rid of guitar Masses and similar nonsense and renewing a spirit of reverence. New priests are getting the full teaching about the Church’s stance against artificial contraception.

Something else I heard on Catholic Radio was an incident where Napolean approached a Cardinal and threatened to destroy the Church. The Cardinal asked him what he was going to do different as opposed to attempts made by some in the Church going back hundreds of years.

You’re right. This is all about POWER, and another word, CONTROL. Just as Western society has been gradually turned into their image and likeness over the last 40 years, the Revolutionaries, with their Che Guevara posters, will be turned out of the city again.
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I hear and read good things too; I just hope it’s a sign of substantive, lasting change for the better. I really wish more people would get it that feminism is about destroying the complementary nature of the sexes; and making men and women into interchangeable, utilitarian cogs in a fascist machine. It’s anti-male and anti-female.
edwest2 said:
And by the way, Vatican II never even suggested the changes these people revel in.

God bless,
Ed
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True…The document on the Liturgy did encourage experimentation, innovation, and modernization, which in my opinion wasn’t a good idea. (And Gaudium et Spes says some really bizarre-sounding things about governments that are maybe more a subject for a different thread.)

…Of course I have the benefit of hindsight, and should give the Vatican II authors the benefit of the doubt, that they were doing what they thought seemed good at the time. But you’re right; Vatican II didn’t teach denial of the sacraments, or the relativistic “social construction” of gender-- thanks be to God.
 
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