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Reuben_J
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St Paul speaks about the law being the slave to serve us. Also he says we are no longer under a slave looking after us. What actually does he say?What does that mean to us today?
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DPMartin
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Reuben J
I believe you can look at it as… is the fulfillment of God’s Commandments for you, or against you?
If you serve the Lord Jesus Christ then surly you serve the fulfillment of the Commandments, the Law. For He fulfilled them. God does not give Commandment and hope maybe it will be fulfilled. This is proven in creation when God said and is was fulfilled until He said “it is Good”.
Therefore the Law is written in your heart, and mankind always seeks the fulfillment of what is in his heart. Hence the fulfillment, is for us. It is our purpose to accept the fulfillment of His Commandments in ourselves. But we fall short therefore Jesus gives us His fulfillment of the Commandments and the Law to satisfaction of the Father that it grow in us. Just as a seed that is planted. The ground yields to the instruction in the seed to bring forth fruits of life. And the instructions are already completed, fulfilled for the instructions are of Christ the Word of God in the Son of man.
In other words the Commandments and the Law is not given to be judged by, they are given to be fulfilled by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Prov:6:23: For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
If one does not accept the fulfillment of the Law and Commandments (hence Jesus Christ) then the fulfillment of the Law is against him. Thus the great Spiritual value of the Books of Moses that Paul speaks of in Rom:7 and the Mercy of God to complete that which we are not able, without Him.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks DPMartin. 
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
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Bookcat
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Robbinson
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I agree with DP Martin’s excellent answer.Thanks DPMartin.
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
Re: your follow up - actually, I believe Jesus showed the rich young man that he didn’t in fact follow “all the commandments” as his possessions were more important to Him than his walk with God (a form of idolatry). None of us is capable of completely following the 10 commandments - that is why it is described as a mirror to reveal our sin, and as a tudor to show us the way to the Messiah.
In Christ we find the fulfillment of the law and under the new covenant, the moral law (10 commandments) is written in our hearts giving us the grace to follow the law more fully and spiritually - but even then, we remain wounded by original sin and need the blood of the messiah to cleanse us of our sin.
Blessings,
Brina
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fhansen
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"…love is the fulfillment of the Law" When we’ve come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves, we are fully just, the Law is fulfilled; God’s succeeded at writing it on our hearts and in our minds, order is restored in the universe.Thanks DPMartin.
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
This is why St Augustine could say:
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“Love, and do what you like.”**
I also like this from St Basil:
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks for the link. It’s a bit long and in my cursory reading, I find it’s useful. I may need to go through it again slowly. I guess something along that line is what I was looking for though I though some posters here could articulate it for simpler understanding.
I like this part that says the laws was to bring a knowledge of sin.
Quote:
The Torah does indeed speak to those under the Torah, and because those under the Torah are sinful, just like those outside it, the whole world is held accountable to God. Nobody will be justified by the Torah because that is not its purpose; the function of the Torah was to bring a knowledge of sin. But now a way of becoming righteous apart from the Torah has been revealed, and the Torah and the Prophets in fact testify to this method.
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Reuben_J
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Hi Brina. You mentioned two things here: (1) That we are not capable of completely following the Ten Commandments, and (2) That under the new covenant we are given the grace to follow the law more fully. Could you elaborate on that?
God bless.
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Reuben_J
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Execellent -the first part and the quote from St. Basil. I am about to get the idea. Would you mind to elaborate and maybe with some practical examples?
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Robbinson
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Reuben
Sure - Can you identify anyone other than Jesus (and other than Mary who according to Church teaching was without sin) who was capable of, and lived an entire life, without committing sin (without violating any of the 10 commandments)? I don’t think it was possible and, as the NT teaches, one who violates any part of the law is guilty of violating “all of it”.
I believe that our baptism cleanses us of our sin - and that God’s grace through the Holy Spirit enables us to more clearly see the law (written in our hearts per Jer 31:31-34) - but, we, like Paul, continue to struggle with sin. As believers, however, we find sin repulsive and when we do sin, we are moved to repentance and confession.
Blessings,
Brian
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Fidelis
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I’ve heard a lot of Protestant preachers offer this interpretation (in an attempt to get around the necessity of works in salvation), but I disagree with it. Let’s look at the passage as it appears in Matthew 19:Thanks DPMartin.
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
First, the young man asks Jesus how to earn eternal life. Jesus tells him what the bare minimum is: follow the commandments. At that point he answered the young man’s question. That might have been the end of the conversation.
(It is interesting that the young man can say that he has been able to observe all these commandments. Since Jesus-- who being God, would know if this were true or not-- apparently accepts this statement, I think we should too. )
But the young man ups the ante. He wants to go further. He wants to not just squeak into heaven, he wants to strive to be perfect.
It is at this point that Jesus ups the ante to. If the man wants to not just make it into heaven by doing the minimum, but strive for “perfection,” he needs to detach himself from all worldly possessions. His earthly treasures will be more than made up by treasure in heaven. This is why he went away sad: he wouldn’t settle for the minimum (in this he was admirable) but he could not give up what it would take to get there.
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DPMartin
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Reuben JThanks DPMartin.
I was more of looking at following the commandments but it do not save. Example the rich young man of the Gospel (Mt 19 & Mk 10). He followed all the commandments but Jesus said he would not get eternal life. So following the commandments was not enough in this case. What is your thought?
thanks for the reply
It seems to me, your thread of “God’s Justice” and this one is some what related.
If you note in your example it’s God’s fulfillment of His Commandments in His Son Jesus Christ that is satisfactory to the Father, or maybe better said Justifies. Not our fulfillment. In the Father’s satisfaction of His Son’s fulfillment of the Commandments are we saved, but that is the half of it.
We are to live in the fulfillment. Note that the Holy Spirit that we are baptized in by Christ is the fulfillment and when we are baptized is the beginning of this fulfillment in us as in the seed the Lord used as an example. Thus we repent and submit to the fulfillment. Therefore as Jesus has said:
Mt:5:18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Lk:16:17: And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
And if one gives some though to the statement in Luke, our faith is the fulfillment and where we fall short God, is faithful to forgive. As in when Paul mentioned an infirmity he could not be rid of. The Lord told Paul that His Grace is sufficient. Christ Jesus is complete, perfect, and He is our perfection.
KJV
Lk:6:40: The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Hence fulfilled, complete, is the meaning of perfect in english when this translation was written.
Mat:5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our Righteousness, our Justification by the very Mercy of God, in order to be in God’s Presence.
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Reuben_J
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Hi Brian.
Do you have any reference for this (the bolded part)? Sorry, I just have to be sure.
Well said. I couldn’t have done better.
God bless.
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Reuben_J
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Hi Fidelis.
An interesting proposition that you gave here which fortunately or unfortunately leads to another question: Would merely following the commandments get us to heaven, even it is merely ‘squeaking’ into it or do we have to be perfect?
God bless.
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Reuben_J
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Hi. Yes they are related. I just put them in separate threads since they are legitimately topics on their own. I was inspired (after discussing with my group members during our Saturday morning prayer) from the last Saturday readings of the daily mass – Gal 3:22-29, Ps 105 & Lk 11:27-28. Topics like slaves to the commandments and justice of God somehow arise. It was edifying then and I thought maybe I should start threads here on them and hear what my fellow Catholics have to say.
Do I understand here that you are saying about Jesus the fulfillment of the Laws?
In our reflection (with my group that Saturday morning) we were saying that we follow the laws/commandments because we are afraid of the consequence if we don’t. Therefore we are slaves to the laws; we do that because we have to not because we want to. We agreed that the laws are necessary especially as guideline so that we can avoid sins. But they are not everything and do not necessarily save especially if we follow it for the sake of doing so.
One of us gave the example of following the traffic light on the road. Some people observe the traffic light because they wouldn’t want to get ticket while others do it because they understand its purpose, i.e. for an orderly traffic and to avoid accident. The first category would not observe the traffic light if a police officer or a camera is not in place to enforce it while the latter would, regardless whether there is enforcement or not. So, which category are the slaves to the laws? Obviously to the former.
Paul was saying that the laws are not for us when faith came. We are saying that even though laws are useful and required, we are not anymore slave to them because now we follow them and even more, because we want to and not because we fear them. What is your thought on this?
God bless.
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fhansen
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In the NT, St Paul tells us that the Law is a teacher, teaching us about sin-and the inability of the Jews as well as ourselves to overcome it completely. The laws presents us with a wall we can’t scale. And even if we could live up to it we still wouldn’t be righteous; we’d only be putting on a show of holiness like many Pharisees who were hypocrites-clean on the outside but filthy on the inside. We’re told that our righteousness must exceed theirs, that not merely our actions but our hearts must be in the right place, and that God judges by the heart while man judges by appearances. We’re told that the law is spiritual but that we’re not- and that trying to obey the law by the letter kills, while the spirit gives life. We become slaves if the Law itself becomes our only goal, our God, our sole means of becoming just by observing it by means of our own efforts.
In the NC, Jesus (God) becomes our righteousness. We’re given the opportunity to see that we cannot become righteous by mere obedience to the Law; we need God, in a direct, personal, internal manner, to overcome sin-we need His grace, operating within us. And God is exactly what was missing. When Adam & Eve sinned they rejected God as their god, for all practical purposes, by rejecting His authority. Faith died in mans heart, according to the Catechism. Mere obedience to a set of rules does not change this fact, this disorder.
So how are we unjust? By disobeying the commandments. What is the cause of our disobedience? Not loving as we ought. How do we obey the commandments? By coming to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. How do we accomplish this? We don’t really. We cooperate with God who accomplishes our justification/salvation, first by turning back to Him, crying, Abba, Father, admitting that we can’t save ourselves, that we simply need God in order to have any hope, to paraphrase a quote of Pope Benedict’s in Spe Salvi.
Man was always meant to fulfill the law to love, fulfilling the commandments by default. Therein lies his justice, his own fulfillment, his freedom, his happiness. He just can’t do it while exiled from God.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD. Jer 31:33-34
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Reuben_J
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Thanks bro. It is post like this that makes participating in this Forum very worthwhile. It’s like going for a seminar and it’s truly amazing to hear these things from a fellow Catholic - how much richness and wisdom that can come out from our thought.
I like the example (you give) of the wall that we can’t scale!
How true it is, just like the rich young man – even though he could live the commandments, it wouldn’t make him righteous because righteousness comes from the heart. If it’s only the external it means nothing – we are no better than the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.
You have expounded very well about being the slaves of the law. We discussed this in our cell group but it didn’t go in-depth.
It is really true – that many a times it is God that is missing and when that happens we do not have a ‘bench mark’ to gauge our action and hearts against. I notice that every time I am being wicked, it is always that God is so very far away. My prayer would be that I must not lose sight of my righteousness, as you said, my Jesus.
May God bless you and those who happen to read your post.
Reuben
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DPMartin
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Reuben J
thanks for the reply
Again…
Since God has writen the Law in hearts of His People, His People will always seeks the fulfillment of what is in their hearts. For the Spirit of the Law Is what is essential.
If the fulfillment is with you, Jesus Christ, then how can it be against you? And the flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God.
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brakelite
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I would suggest that the blood of the atonement frees us from the bondage and futility of trying to be saved by the law, but not from our obligation to obey it.
The rich young ruler claimed to have obeyed all the commandments that Jesus quoted, and I am sure he was right. But Jesus had omitted the 10th, until the young man , his conscience pricking him, asked “what else is there?” Jesus then quoted the one commandment he had omitted earlier, the one that deals with covetousness. The young man immediately recognised his fault and sin, but loved his processions too much to repent, and went away turning his back on the only way to eternal security. Jesus would have then and there forgiven him his covetous nature, offered him a change of heart (which Jesus offers all of us) and the young man would have been saved through faith in Jesus , the grace imparted to him, and the righteousness that would have been given as a free gift that he may live the rest of his life a commandment keeping generous disciple of Christ. A sad tale.
I have written more fully on the subject of faith, grace and the law here.
The rich young ruler claimed to have obeyed all the commandments that Jesus quoted, and I am sure he was right. But Jesus had omitted the 10th, until the young man , his conscience pricking him, asked “what else is there?” Jesus then quoted the one commandment he had omitted earlier, the one that deals with covetousness. The young man immediately recognised his fault and sin, but loved his processions too much to repent, and went away turning his back on the only way to eternal security. Jesus would have then and there forgiven him his covetous nature, offered him a change of heart (which Jesus offers all of us) and the young man would have been saved through faith in Jesus , the grace imparted to him, and the righteousness that would have been given as a free gift that he may live the rest of his life a commandment keeping generous disciple of Christ. A sad tale.
I have written more fully on the subject of faith, grace and the law here.
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Reuben_J
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Amen bro. You have emphasized more on the fulfillment otherwise both your idea and that of fhansen are quite similar.
God bless.
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