Slavonic : Is It Important?

[Diak]

Maybe this is a silly question, but do UGCC clergy ever use Old Slavonic? Or is its residual use only in the congregation?

Yes, there are some priests who will celebrate the Liturgy in Slavonic.

Some of the less-frequently used texts of propers have yet to actually be translated into Ukrainian from Slavonic from the Irmologion and other older liturgical books. One is more likely to find some texts in English than Ukrainian, but this is becoming less and less likely with the proliferation of translations into Ukrainian by both the UGCC and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate.

 

[Diak]

Several people here have mentioned Ukrainian as a language.

I attended a Ukrainian Catholic parish which used Ukrainian, and found it just enough like Slavonic to keep tripping me up, especially with longer texts such as the Lord’s Prayer.

Aside from its importance as a primary source for services in honor of Slavic saints, Slavonic is also useful for resolving certain ambiguities in Greek texts.

There are essentially two “standard” Ukrainian translations in use. The first is that of Patriarch Josyp which he printed in Rome in the late 1960s. It was a more “archaic” Ukrainian and much closer to Slavonic. The newer Synodal translation is based on a more modern Ukrainian language usage that is still very respectful of the root text and appropriate.

Sort of like the difference between ROCOR and OCA or Greek Archdiocese English translations.

 

[Patchunky]

Hi Malphono, I grew up in a Hungarian parish and we had two liturgies one English and one Hungarian . Sam Carters`s post had me a little confused too mentioning the Slavonic in a Hungarian parish.

Yes, the Hungarian parish I visit on occasion doesn’t use OCS either only English or Hungarian…

 

[Rocky8311]

In my experience as an outsider who has visited Ruthenian Byzantine parishes in Texas, I’m mystified by the topic. Almost all parishioners I’ve met were converts or were former Latin rite with no cultural attachment to church Slavonic.

The Byzantine Divine Liturgy has been celebrated in English far longer than the Roman Mass has…approaching perhaps 300 years in the US alone. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was zero interest in church Slavonic in Texas among Byzantines within one generation. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Byzantine Catholicism doubled or tripled in size here in that period of time.

 

[Patchunky]

The Byzantine Divine Liturgy has been celebrated in English far longer than the Roman Mass has.

Interesting since the first Byzantine Catholic church wasn’t established in the US until 1884 and they used Old Church Slavonic.

The Russian Orthodox were here before that and they used Old Church Slavonic as well…

 

[Diak]

I also wouldn’t be surprised if Byzantine Catholicism doubled or tripled in size here in that period of time.

If you believe the “statistics” there has instead been a general decline in the US since the institution of almost sole English usage.

 

[SVP]

In my experience as an outsider who has visited Ruthenian Byzantine parishes in Texas, I’m mystified by the topic. Almost all parishioners I’ve met were converts or were former Latin rite with no cultural attachment to church Slavonic.

The Byzantine Divine Liturgy has been celebrated in English far longer than the Roman Mass has…approaching perhaps 300 years in the US alone. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was zero interest in church Slavonic in Texas among Byzantines within one generation. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Byzantine Catholicism doubled or tripled in size here in that period of time.

Less than 40 years ago, Slavonic was still in common use in the Ruthenian BCC.Most of the early usage of English translation of the Divine Liturgy was in the late 1800’s (1880-). Usage of English for the celebration of the divine Liturgy did not become ‘routine’ until the 1960’s. It wasn’t till the promulgation of the “RDL” in 2006 that Slavonic has essentially been outright ignored in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.

The Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in America 300 years ago, the few there were, more than likely if not downright positively did** NOT **use English for the celebration of the Divine Liturgy.

Isabel Hapgood’s translation was in 1906. I don’t know if the DIvine Liturgy was regularly celebrated anywhere using her translation. Does anyone know if there were cases of early English translations in regular use?

There does seem to be some corelation between the regularised use of English in the 1960’s and the precipitous decline in the 21st century of parish populations in USA. There are likely numerous causes of the decline among them quite possibly was the deliberate ignoring of Slavonic as a liturgical language in parishes across the country.

Myself, I grew up with All Slavonic Divine Liturgies, and would hope that the Ruthenian Church would feel halfway safe in allowing at the very least a token use of Slavonic, much as the RCC currently does with Greek (Kyrie Eleison).

Obviously there are increasing numbers who feel that Latin is important int the RCC and are showing increasing numbers. Why would the use of English only necessicarily improve poplations of BCC’s? Even with RC converts, I have heard people asking about Slavonic.

It is important.

 

[Rocky8311]

I had heard via Dragani’s EWTN Eastern forum back in the day that English use in Byzantine liturgy in the USA occurred at least as early as the 19th century; I’ve forgotten when, exactly. If you read my words, I said it was possible that it’s been up to 300 years here; I didn’t say it was the *exact *earliest use and I did not say it was widespread.

But the burden is now on me to find what I read before and cite it.

 

[Aramis]

People are confusing the Ruthenian Church and the term Byzantine. The first English liturgies were probably NOT Ruthenian, but Ukrainian or Italo-albanian. In large part, because the Ruthenians generally arrived later than the others.

However, the Russians started using the liturgies in the vernaculars in the late 19th C as well… but had translated the DL into Aleutiq, Inupiq, and a couple other Alaska Native languages in the 18th C…

 

[crickett54]

I like the use of Slavonic during the Liturgy. I wish the new revised Divine Liturgy had not eliminated it.In another twenty years no one will know it, and I think it is a shame that it will be lost.

 

[Patchunky]

People are confusing the Ruthenian Church and the term Byzantine. The first English liturgies were probably NOT Ruthenian, but Ukrainian or Italo-albanian. In large part, because the Ruthenians generally arrived later than the others.

Actually, the first Divine Liturgy was celebrated by Fr. John Volansky in Shenandoah,PA in 1884. Fr. Volansky would have celebrated the Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic NOT in Ruthenian, Ukrainian or Italian or Albanian…

Ruthenians and Slovaks came to the US prior to Ukrainians because so many of them worked in the coal mines in Slovakia. At the time, Banska Stiavnica in Slovakia was were the most MODERN mining techniques were developed.

 

[Patchunky]

I like the use of Slavonic during the Liturgy. I wish the new revised Divine Liturgy had not eliminated it.In another twenty years no one will know it, and I think it is a shame that it will be lost.

The “new” RDL should NOT have had any effect on the use of Slavonic in the Divine Liturgy.

The “new” RDL deals ONLY WITH THE ENGLISH version of the Divine Liturgy.

The Slavonic Divine Liturgy remains unchanged. From what I’ve heard and seen, more people are requesting and attending the Slavonic Divine Liturgy to get away from the RDL.:byzsoc:

 

[Pro_Domina]

I confess that I’am not particularly knowledgeable on the subject, but I do know that some Byzantine Rite Churches still use it for Divine Liturgy, and that the Ukrainian Catholic Church used it up until the 1960’s.

For starters, my first question is whether or not it still has a place in Eastern Catholic worship. Also, and now I may really be showing my unfamiliarity with the subject, but is it true that modern Macedonian is the closest language to Slavonic ?

Well it is quite important because the traslations of the CIC for the Eastern Churches is found in Greek, French and Slavonic. Sure some other translations have been made, but these are like the official ones.

 

[Volodymyr]

The translations of the CIC for the Eastern Churches is found in Greek, French and Slavonic

What is the CIC??

Is this a Catolic document in Slavonic??? Why can document be in Slavonic if no Catolic church uses Slavonic very widely - not Ukrainian Hreko Catolic church which rarely uses Slavonic, not Bulgarian which avoids Slavonic. Are you not meaning rather that translation is in Slovak or Slovene languages perhaps. I am sure that such scholars as at Russicum could do such a translation - but to what purpose and of what document???

 

[Rosemariex]

In our Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, three Divine Liturgies are celebrated each week-end. The 5:00 p.m. liturgy on Saturday and the 11:30 a.m. liturgy on Sunday morning are done in English. The 9:00 a.m. liturgy on Sunday morning is what some call a High Mass, with the priest speaking and the choir responding in Old Church Slavonic. People may attend which ever liturgy they prefer. As for me, I grew up in this church and learned the Cyrillic alphabet and all Slavonic responses from an early age (at a time when no liturgies were in English) so I love the more formal Slavonic liturgy. And the acapella choir…Eastern tradition…just a glorius way to worship our Lord!

 

[Aramis]

What is the CIC??

Is this a Catolic document in Slavonic??? Why can document be in Slavonic if no Catolic church uses Slavonic very widely - not Ukrainian Hreko Catolic church which rarely uses Slavonic, not Bulgarian which avoids Slavonic. Are you not meaning rather that translation is in Slovak or Slovene languages perhaps. I am sure that such scholars as at Russicum could do such a translation - but to what purpose and of what document???

CIC = Codex Iuris Canonicus = Code of Canon Law = Latin Church Canon Law
CCEO = Codex Canonicus Ecclesiam Orientalis = Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches.= Canon law for the other 22 Catholic Churches united to the pope/

The official version of each is the Latin; the other translations are informative but not definitive. Much like the defining creed of the Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox Churches) is the Nicene-Constantinoplean creed in the original Greek. The various translations are valid, but not definitive; when in doubt, consult the greek version.

 

[Tidus]

Too bad for your husband and BIG CHEERS to the President of the Parish Council:clapping:

I love hearing our Church Slavonic sung! It’s to bad we have to have the DL in English!

These are OUR TRADITIONS and if people don’t like them, they can go elsewhere… why should we have to abondon OUR TRADITIONS because YOU or YOUR HUSBAND doesn’t like them??

Your husband wouldn’t like it if I came to your home and threw out his TV and Bark-o-lounger because I didn’t like…

OUR TRADITIONS, eh? I would hate to break it to you, but in Hungary Slavonic is not used nor has it been in over a hundred years (not counting the 20 parishes that still do use it because they are Carpathian Ukrainian in origin). Hungarian is the official liturgical language of the Hungarian Catholic Church (and I guess Greek would be the second, per orders of His Holiness St. Pius X), and also Hungarians are not Slavs so thy find little use for it (well I am half Slav thanks to my Polish father so I guess there are some Slavic Hungarians but you get the point).

Original poster, please do not let these internet bullies get to you, all are welcome - Blacks, French, Italians, and yes even Germans - to Greek Catholic parishes. The language of the people is what should be used.

Church Slavonic is fine if you’re a speaker of a Slavic language, but look at what Sts. Cyril and Methodius went through to get permission to celebrate in the vernacular - what today we call Church Slavonic - to convert the Slavs. If you’re in mission territory i.e. the USA (and I guess even Europe these days) the language of the people should be used!