Smoking is intrinsically disorderd

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I think comparing smoking to buying a pair of new shoes or eating a piece of candy is over the top. Smoking is clearly sin. And just because smoking is not “intrinsically disordered” by specific definition similiar to mastubation does not make smoking “not a sin”.

Sin separates us from our loving Creator, why sin at all?

As to the “veniel sin verse mortal sin” questions in the OP:

If we know/assume/guess that anything is a sin and we do it anyway then we are like the child, who after being told 20 times not to jump in the mud puddle, looks at his Father glaring, then jumps in anyway. I can tell you, as a parent, I have dealt with that type of behavior before. How do you think that makes God feel? Just how far can you push me until I send you to hell? Is that the question? How many cigarettes can I smoke a day God? 5,10,15? God is up in heaven right now looking at you, go ahead ask Him…

 

[cargau]

I think comparing smoking to buying a pair of new shoes or eating a piece of candy is over the top.

Of course, you are right, they are not the same. I would point out the context in which that statement was made. A previous post was making the point that smoking does not bring us closer to God, therefore a sin. I was merely suggesting that buying a new pair of shoes or eating a piece of candy are not intended to bring us closer to God, either. Yet, no one would consider them sinful.

Smoking is clearly sin.
Careful, here. The Church has made no such declaration. Since, you do not smoke, you are free of this sin. Thus, you are holding me and others under your sense of judgement…

And just because smoking is not “intrinsically disordered” by specific definition similiar to mastubation does not make smoking “not a sin”.

Sin separates us from our loving Creator, why sin at all? We all sin. But, by who’s definition are we sinning?

As to the “veniel sin verse mortal sin” questions in the OP:

If we know/assume/guess that anything is a sin and we do it anyway then we are like the child, who after being told 20 times not to jump in the mud puddle, looks at his Father glaring, then jumps in anyway. I can tell you, as a parent, I have dealt with that type of behavior before. How do you think that makes God feel? Just how far can you push me until I send you to hell? Is that the question? How many cigarettes can I smoke a day God? 5,10,15? God is up in heaven right now looking at you, go ahead ask Him…

I make no such assumption. This thread has really sought to attack users of tobacco as sinners. What’s next, users of red meat, pain killers, candy, fast food, cars. When misused all of these can kill too.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I make no such assumption. This thread has really sought to attack users of tobacco as sinners. What’s next, users of red meat, pain killers, candy, fast food, cars. When misused all of these can kill too.

Correct, the idea to use these at the right temperance.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think comparing smoking to buying a pair of new shoes or eating a piece of candy is over the top. Smoking is clearly sin. And just because smoking is not “intrinsically disordered” by specific definition similiar to mastubation does not make smoking “not a sin”.

Sin separates us from our loving Creator, why sin at all?

The question remains then, how does smoking an occassional cigar or cigarette separate us from God?

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m sorry, I just had to post this joke to lighten up the mood

There was a Franciscan, a Dominican, and a Jesuit who would often get together and pray the Liturgy of the Hours together. Each of them enjoyed smoking, and together they decided to ask their superiors if they could smoke while praying the Office together.

The next time they got together, the Franciscan said, “I asked my superior if I could smoke while we prayed, and he told me that it would be disrespectful!”

The Dominican said, “I asked my superior if I could smoke while we prayed, and he told me that it would be totally inappropriate!”

Then the Jesuit said, “Well, my superior said that I could definitely smoke while we prayed! In fact, he said it was a great idea!” The Franciscan and the Dominican were both astounded and asked, “How on earth did you ever get him to agree?”

The Jesuit replied, “Well, you both asked if you could smoke while you pray. I asked if I could pray while I smoked!”

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

The body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and God made it. If you intentionally abuse it, it is sin:

mayoclinic.com/health/cigar-smoking/AN01515

lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=39859

quoting the above: Cigars contain the same addictive, toxic and carcinogenic compounds found in cigarettes. In fact, a single large cigar can contain as much tobacco as an entire pack of cigarettes.6

medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10007

quoting the above:Cigar smokers were found to have about twice the risk of cancers of the mouth, throat, and lung and about one-and-a-half times the risk of developing any smoking-related cancer as did the nonsmokers. Additionally, cigar smokers who drank 3 or more alcoholic drinks a day had a risk of mouth and throat cancer almost 8 times that of nonsmokers who drank 2 or fewer drinks per day.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=86998

The WHO’s report includes these global statistics on tobacco deaths:

100 million people died of tobacco-related causes during the 20th century.
Tobacco currently kills 5.4 million people per year.
Tobacco use makes six of the world’s eight leading causes of death – including heart disease, stroke, and cancer – more likely.

If I was Satan, I cannot think a better lie that smoking is not a sin. Why do it all? Is it so important to kill yourself one puff at a time? Don’t you care about anybody but yourself? What about your friends, wife, mother, children? Is the little high you get worth all that? Aren’t you tired of having yellow fingers, teeth, smelling bad, getting winded walking to the car?

How much is a carton of cigarettes, $40? At a carton a week that’s $2000 a year, not to mention you probably go to the doctor twice as often, higher insurance premiums, have more sick days, waste employer’s time on smoke breaks. Your second hand smoke around your family isn’t good for them. Did you know that when you trade in your smoke infested car you will typically get less trade in due to the smell that has permeated the upholstry?
Are these good things to do with the money God has intrusted to you?

 

[Joe_5859]

Ted in Charlott,

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. I absolutely abhor smoking. I jumped for joy when my state passed the “smoke free” amendment banning smoking from all restaurants, bowling alleys, and basically every public place. Two of my grandparents died far too young because of smoking related illnesses. I also agree that we have to consider the negative physical effects on the smoker and those around them, as well as the possible sin of being financially irresponsible by spending so much money on all those cigarettes. I absolutely agree that smoking can most definitely be sinful.

Where I disagree with the OP is that smoking is inherently sinful and intrinsically disordered, along the same lines as sexual sins.

First, I disagree because nowhere in the Church’s 2000 year history is there any indication that the Church teaches that smoking always and everywhere violates the natural moral law. Smoking is not a new scientific phenomenon like cloning or in vitro fertilization. If it was intrinisically disordered, the Church probably would have said so by now.

To say that smoking is intrinsically disordered is a very bold statement. Let’s flesh out exactly what this would mean:

• Anyone who smoked one cigar would be guilty of mortal sin.
• Anyone who smoked one home-grown tobacco cigarette would be guilty of mortal sin
• Anyone who smoked one joint of marijuana for medicinal purposes would be guilty of mortal sin

I have a friend who smokes a cigar maybe twice a year on special occassions. Is that healthy for him to do? Maybe not. But neither is eating twinkies, and we don’t call that “intrinsically disordered”. Is he living in a state of mortal sin? Nothing you could find in any Church teaching would indicate that at all.

For something to be intrinisically disordered, even doing it once, for any reason would be a mortal sin (provided it is done with full knowledge and complete consent). I think that is taking things a bit too far. At best, I think you could say that smoking modern-day cigarettes habitually is usually sinful.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I think comparing smoking to buying a pair of new shoes or eating a piece of candy is over the top. Smoking is clearly sin. And just because smoking is not “intrinsically disordered” by specific definition similiar to mastubation does not make smoking “not a sin”.

I do not believe I have ever heard of the Church exhorting the faithful to give up any particular sin for only “one whole day”…?

*Iubilaris plenaria indulgentia per incepta quoque acquiri potest quae paenitentialem spiritum efficacem generosumque in modum perficiunt, qui est veluti Iubilaei anima. Sic cum

per diem quis a rerum supervacanearum usu sese abstinet (verbi gratia a fumi nicotiani gustatione

, ab alcoholicis potionibus, ieiunando vel se abstinendo ad generales Ecclesiae leges et Episcopatuum peculiares normas) atque congruas pecunias in pauperum beneficium confert; religiosa socialiave opera praestabili subsidio sustinendo (peculiari modo pro pueris desertis, iuvenibus laborantibus, senibus indigentibus, alienigenis variarum Nationum, qui tranquilliores vitae condiciones persequuntur); congruam liberi temporis partem ad actiones, communitati utiles, praestando vel id genus gerendo personali ex sacrificio opera.*

Incarnationis Mysterium​

The plenary indulgence of the Jubilee can also be gained through actions which express in a practical and generous way the penitential spirit which is, as it were, the heart of the Jubilee. This would include

abstaining for at least one whole day from unnecessary consumption (e.g., from smoking

or alcohol, or fasting or practising abstinence according to the general rules of the Church and the norms laid down by the Bishops’ Conferences) and donating a proportionate sum of money to the poor; supporting by a significant contribution works of a religious or social nature (especially for the benefit of abandoned children, young people in trouble, the elderly in need, foreigners in various countries seeking better living conditions); devoting a suitable portion of personal free time to activities benefitting the community, or other similar forms of personal sacrifice.

Incarnationis Mysterium​

:twocents:
tee

 

[JimG]

Does smoking keep people from overeating? If so, there’s one potential health benefit. Overeating leads to a great many health disorders–heart disease, athersclerosis, diabetes, among them, yet most of us are guilty of it. Also a mortal sin? We indulge in many things that are not great for our bodies, overconsumption of food and alcohol, zoning out in front of the TV or computer for hours at a time, addiction to various forms of entertainment at the expense of our health. Addiction to sexual behaviors that are ruinous to self and society. Yet it seems that eliminating smoking and smokers has replaced the medieval witch hunt as the trendy form of combatting evil. The world has more to worry about than smoking.

 

[that1dude]

My grand point to all this, is why is masturbation considered ‘gravely disordered’ but tobacco isnt? Why isn’t it tolerated ‘in moderation’ like the others? They are all selfish, do not lead one to charity, and do not bring one closer to God.

Both masturbation and drug use are natural urges of humans. Both can be enjoyable on a slow day, but must be utilized in moderation so as to not lose more than you gain. Though I can’t see many ill effects of masturbation. It doesn’t take that long, but if you don’t have that sexual drive pent up inside you, you might not be driven to go out and meet a mate. Though you probably still would.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I don’t think it’s right to compare smoking with masturbation because the two actions are different. When you are smoking more than likely there can be a million things on your mind. These thoughts can be either pure or impure. When you masturbate, the thoughts going through your mind are most likely impure.

Ever hear of “adultery of the heart”?

 

[Joe_5859]

Yet it seems that eliminating smoking and smokers has replaced the medieval witch hunt as the trendy form of combatting evil. The world has more to worry about than smoking.

I heard one priest say (in a homily no less!) that smokers were the modern-day lepers of the world. It’s fashionable to ostracize them.

 

[ForwardProgress]

I don’t think it’s right to compare smoking with masturbation because the two actions are different. When you are smoking more than likely there can be a million things on your mind. These thoughts can be either pure or impure. When you masturbate, the thoughts going through your mind are most likely impure.

Ever hear of “adultery of the heart”?

It is entirely possible to masturbate without the first impure thought.

 

[nilofc]

Both masturbation and drug use are natural urges of humans. Both can be enjoyable on a slow day, but must be utilized in moderation so as to not lose more than you gain…

This is wrong. Masturbation is a sin. It’s not a natural human tendency to sin…as well as drug use.

You may have sexual urge from time to time but that doesn’t mean you need to sin.

To be human is to be like God. To sin, is to be de-humanized.

 

[Joe_5859]

It is entirely possible to masturbate without the first impure thought.

Masturbation is not intrinsically disordered because it involves impure thoughts but because it is a misuse of our sexual faculties.

 

[ForwardProgress]

Just like smoking is a misuse of our breathing facilities.

 

[that1dude]

Masturbation and smoking are not the same thing. Masturbation is disordered because it interferes with God’s purpose of giving us our fertility, our share in the gift of creation. Masturbation spills seed, that is why God struck down Onan, he threw the gift of his fertility away. It’s not the act of masturbation itself that is disordered as much as it is the result, both physically and psychologically. Masturbation is much more than just the physical act, there is a domino effect in doing it that reaches out into other parts of a person’s life, indeed into the life of society. In smoking, it’s the addiction that causes the domino effect and reaches out into other parts of a person’s life, so that is why it’s the addiction rather than the act of smoking that is disordered. Masturbation is disordered because semen is meant for a greater purpose, and the disrespect of that purpose causes more far reaching problems.

The disordered mind sees problems where there are none. Masturbation in principle hurts no-one. Masturbation is pleasurable. You say that it is the “result, both physically and psychologically” that is “disordered”. Prove it. I wrestle with the one-eyed monster from time to time and assure you that I am just fine. But you somehow know better. Prove it. Rational people make assertions and then set out to prove them. Is this asking too much? Are you joking when you mention Onan? He was punished for not impregnating his brother’s widow. He was ordered to have sex with his dead brothers wife. He rightly refused to have a child by his DEAD BROTHER’S WIFE. God unjustly punished this guy. Are you saying that if a person has sex with their DEAD BROTHER’S WIFE, then they must not do anything to prevent the sperm from reaching the ovum?

 

[that1dude]

Masturbation is not intrinsically disordered because it involves impure thoughts but because it is a misuse of our sexual faculties.

You are some authority on the use of “sexual faculties”? Ever actually think about it? The wind blows and my shirt tickles my nipples. Wonderful feeling. Humans have an array of sexual feelings that are wonderful to explore and appreciate. It is extremely evil to denigrate God by describing his designs as “disordered”.

 

[nilofc]

The disordered mind sees problems where there is none. Masturbation in principle hurts no-one. Masturbation is pleasurable. You say that it is the “result, both physically and psychologically” that is “disordered”. Prove it. I wrestle with the one-eyed monster from time to time and assure you that I am just fine. But you somehow know better. Prove it. Rational people make assertions and then set out to prove them. Is this asking too much? Are you joking when you mention Onan? He was punished for not impregnating his brother’s widow. He was ordered to have sex with his dead brothers wife. He rightly refused to have a child by his DEAD BROTHER’S WIFE. God unjustly punished this guy. Are you saying that if a person has sex with their DEAD BROTHER’S WIFE, then they must not do anything to prevent the sperm from reaching the ovum?

…oh so easy to prove…

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Offenses Against Chastity

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139