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epan
Guest
I’ve seen vids of this. These people go into ecstatic states. Why don’t they keep anti-venom on hand?
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ltwin
Guest
Because that would not be adhering to the interpretation of the verses in question. If they are promised divine protection from snake bites, then there is no need to use anti-venom. It would defeat the whole purpose of the ritual.
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ltwin
Guest
Most Pentecostals interpret this verse as a promise that God will confirm the Gospel with signs following. Think about it, if you are a missionary and you get bit by a snake and God supernaturally heals you, wouldn’t that be great confirmation to those you are trying to reach that God is real and that their is real power in the Gospel being preached.Isn’t this more of an example of taking charismatic/ Pentecostal theology to its logical conclusion?
If tongues and faith healing are still signs of the Spirit. why don’t we see Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland handle snakes and drink poison?
We certainly do not advocate making a ritual out of it. To make a ritual out of this verse is to take it completely out of context and destroy the plain meaning of scripture. And we certainly don’t advocate being stupid. We may be crazy, but we no better than to tempt God. If I were in a service and someone brought out a bag of snakes, I would be the first one to call animal control.
From what I understand, this is really a very isolated geographical/cultural practice. It emerged in Appalachia and I’m not aware that it has spread further than that.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
First mistake is the literal view as snakes as evil. Lucifer manifested himself as a serpent. Thus a symbolic translation from Genesis foward. He is not a poison snake, though its a very good analogy of manifested evil.
When we say Faith, should this be the case then why not walk up with a grenade and pull the pin to test your faith? Why not use a revolver with one bullet and play the odds. Every time you pick up a Cottonmouth your odds of being bit increase each and every time. Its called probability. Like Lotto, you can’t win if you don’t play, well here you won’t die if you don’t play.
Does the ability to handle snakes come into play, or should one just grab one by the tail?
Why not walk into the Lions den like Daniel did? Martyrs for the faith?
There a difference from stepping in the gap because of belief, because this is what that present moment required, then foolishly thinking you should place yourself in harms way to test God thus the gift of life given to you, thus mortality.
Life was given as a gift thus what is right is respect it and choose to live, easier said than done for some. Should at some point your Faith be tested by God, then you make the choice, if you even want to call it a choice. Nevertheless the dwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn’t reside in the fact of mortality tested and overcome. For we cannot say the Holy Spirit was not in the first 3-centuries of Martyrs, let alone all the rest including today. They don’t foolishly choose death, in fact they choose life till no other option presents itself. Then their life is truly in Gods hands. Then the act is not only sancification but also a lasting message of the Lords will be it you live or not.
Playing with seriously dangerous snakes is just irrational behavior. Life is the test, not your mortality in it and if you have the ability to take it.
Self destructive behavior on the installment plan is all this is under the illusion of a misguided understanding.
Perhaps I’m not understanding here.
When we say Faith, should this be the case then why not walk up with a grenade and pull the pin to test your faith? Why not use a revolver with one bullet and play the odds. Every time you pick up a Cottonmouth your odds of being bit increase each and every time. Its called probability. Like Lotto, you can’t win if you don’t play, well here you won’t die if you don’t play.
Does the ability to handle snakes come into play, or should one just grab one by the tail?
Why not walk into the Lions den like Daniel did? Martyrs for the faith?
There a difference from stepping in the gap because of belief, because this is what that present moment required, then foolishly thinking you should place yourself in harms way to test God thus the gift of life given to you, thus mortality.
Life was given as a gift thus what is right is respect it and choose to live, easier said than done for some. Should at some point your Faith be tested by God, then you make the choice, if you even want to call it a choice. Nevertheless the dwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn’t reside in the fact of mortality tested and overcome. For we cannot say the Holy Spirit was not in the first 3-centuries of Martyrs, let alone all the rest including today. They don’t foolishly choose death, in fact they choose life till no other option presents itself. Then their life is truly in Gods hands. Then the act is not only sancification but also a lasting message of the Lords will be it you live or not.
Playing with seriously dangerous snakes is just irrational behavior. Life is the test, not your mortality in it and if you have the ability to take it.
Self destructive behavior on the installment plan is all this is under the illusion of a misguided understanding.
Perhaps I’m not understanding here.
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ltwin
Guest
You’re making perfect sense to me.
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cajunhillbilly
Guest
Yes I used to live in Morgantown. Live near Dallas now. I also remember attending a weekly prayer group at a local Franciscan friary. I believe though that the friary is no longer active. Not even sure if it is open.You live up near Morgantown right Cajun? Right across the border is Greene County Pa which is almost as wild and desolate as parts of WV.But you’re still pretty close to civilization.
Most of these SH cults are on the border of WV and Kentucky.
Curiously, where the Hatfield and McCoy fueds took place.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
My dog can deal with cottonmouths. But that’s what God made her for. She just grabs the snake real fast, bites it and SHAKES the heck out of it, before it can even start to strike her. It’s kinda scary but seriously cool that she’s able to do this.
However, I’d be very nervous about a rattler - their venom is stronger. A dog can survive a cottonmouth bite, and so can a person, but a rattler? No.
However, I’d be very nervous about a rattler - their venom is stronger. A dog can survive a cottonmouth bite, and so can a person, but a rattler? No.
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tarboy
Guest
Jim,
Do you honestly think there aren’t Catholics that have performed some dangerous act and beforehand prayed, “I’ll leave it up to God’s Will if I live or die?”
Acts like this are more a sign of spiritual immaturity,
only the juvenile think God responds to our capricious tests of his love for us.
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Darran
Guest
Immaturity I take it you mean. It is that as well, but in this case scripture was his basis for doing what he did.
If any Catholics did the same thing they would have also been self interpreting.
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robwar
Guest
Yes, I am very sure that he and the churches that practice these things are very very sincere. It is all too easy to point fingers at them and consider them the freak show of pentacostalism. Probably the better response is to learn and consider what is false views or beliefs and where they can lead people. Heresies can have very tragic and deadly consequences. when people start to read and believe in false teaching and views they may end up with a terrible end. I view these unfortunate people as the end of what the name it claim it faith/wealth/health gospel will get you. It is too easy to look at them and point a finger and say OMG but for those who read some of the popular “faith claim it” teachers or watch them on TV, this is the end result. Its the same thing as those parents who won’t take their children to the Dr because that would be a lack of faith. False teaching and religious views have sometimes very deadly consequences.
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robwar
Guest
In reality, it would be the end result of faith/health and wealth name it claim it. I think I have read that they believe that they drink and handle these things and if they have no sin, they will not be harmed, so since this poor pastor died in their thinking he must have had some sin in his life which resulted in his death. This is what heresy can lead to and why heresies are dangerous and to be avoided.
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ebonykawai
Guest
The CNN article said he drank strychnine and that his father died of strychnine poisoning in 1983.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
The Catholic Church does not teach Sola Scriptura with its subsidiary doctrine of private interpretation. A Catholic may “perform some dangerous act” but It’s unlikely that he/she would base risky behavior on the New Testament, as snake-handlers do.
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pnewton
Guest
No one has claimed piety or thumped anything. I do not know what you mean. As Catholics, we do defend the authority of the Church and warn against going off in abherrent directions based on private interpretation. It is a thin line between snake handlers and many other non-denominational Christians, being only a matter of degree of deviance. Likewise, there is greater deviation in such private interpreters as the Jim Jones’ and Davidians of the world. There is good reason why God had to leave a structure on Earth to provide authority for the Body of Christ.
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Lochias
Guest
The Catholic Church’s teaching authority, being guided by the Holy Spirit, has never and will never teach someone that foolishly handling a deadly poisonous snake is safe and a sign of faith. There’s your difference.
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Oldtimer_7
Guest
My pastor was previously in Bluefield, WVA, and knew the man who died. Unfortunately, we are both travelling right not and have not had time to discuss his situation. However, she did get some insights into the practices while in Bluefield. Snakes are often kept in a cold place until they are brought into the sanctuary. This means that the first ones to handle them are at very little risk, since it takes a while for the snakes to warm up. Second, it is possible to build up tolerance to strychnine, and it was used in medicine at one time. Getting bitten nonfatally by a pit viper will also build up a tolerance to the poison. Third, snakes can control the amount of poison they inject, or whether to inject any at all. The fangs are separately controllable, so a snake may bite with both, one, or none. The worst time to get bitten is when the snake is eating. At any rate, two people being bitten by the same snake may have very different reactions, or none at all, depending on the amount of poison injected. If the snake has been milked, another practice to render them less dangerous in the services, it may take some days for the poison to build up again.
Though a number of posters have laid responsibility for this event at the feet of Sola Scriptura, I would say it is symptomatic of a larger heresy, namely Cafeteria Christianity, the using of one small part of Scripture without considering the overall context of the whole of Scripture. This is a heresy that has prevailed throughout the ages, and shows no signs of letting up, regardless of religious affiliation. It even affects our Atheistic brethren, who look at snippet of Scripture or religious practice and condemn the whole of it.
Though a number of posters have laid responsibility for this event at the feet of Sola Scriptura, I would say it is symptomatic of a larger heresy, namely Cafeteria Christianity, the using of one small part of Scripture without considering the overall context of the whole of Scripture. This is a heresy that has prevailed throughout the ages, and shows no signs of letting up, regardless of religious affiliation. It even affects our Atheistic brethren, who look at snippet of Scripture or religious practice and condemn the whole of it.
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Lochias
Guest
Really, it boils down to the same thing; most proponents of Sola Scriptura seem to do just the cherry-picking that you describe here. Your response is very well worded, however, and I (more or less) quite agree.
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Oldtimer_7
Guest
Brother Lochias, we are very much in agreement and I read your words as prophetic. One thing that I would add would be that some Catholics also have some practices which do not reflect well on the whole of Catholics, nor on the Church. There is nothing about the Penitentes that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I recall an interview with a Mexican filmmaker who is estranged from the Church because, when he was in elementary school, his grandmother made him walk to school with bottle caps in his shoes, pointed side up. This was to mortify the flesh. This is not to brand Catholicism with the taint of some of its adherents. Believe me, right now I am wrestling with the import of my Old Testament professor in college, an ordained Lutheran pastor, who was just arrested for child molestation. As in Romans, we have all fallen short of the glory of God. Adopting a stance of moral superiority is soundly rejected by Saint Paul in the third chapter of Romans.
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Lochias
Guest
I would answer that anyone who studies what the Church teaches and believes would know that the grandmother of the unfortunate filmmaker was acting outside of sound judgement and teaching. There are none of us perfect, it is true. It is not a stance of moral superiority I am adopting, but one of calm and assurance, believing as I do that the RCC is the best-equipped and prepared to get people to Heaven. That can sound arrogant and blunt, it’s true, but then I look at pastors dying of snake-bites that are essentially self-inflicted, all due to misinterpretation of Scripture, and I can then only be grateful that I belong to a Church that knows what it’s doing.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Private interpretation of Scripture, a concomitant doctrine of Sola Scriptura that I (and others) have said the snake-handlers practice, is similar to your description of a “cafeteria Christian.” The term originated as “cafeteria Catholic,” a person (heretic) who picks and chooses among the Church’s doctrines. However, the menu doesn’t change for a “cafeteria Christian,” but private interpretation yeilds countless possibilities, as we see demonstrated by the thousands of Protestant denominations in the world (and counting).
Thank you for your comments – very interesting. When you and your pastor have the time and opportunity to discuss this, I hope you will post more of her insights into the phenomenon of snake-handling and this particular deceased pastor and his sect.
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