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Trelow
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well said.
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Lurch104
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What ugly Americans. How dare they protest a man that enabled their children to be raped. It is so embarrassing for the Church. They should just shut up and go away. I’m sure that the cardinal is very sorry for what he has done. I mean really, just because a priest raped a few kids in a few parishes does not mean that he would do it again. I can’t even believe that Frs. Geoghan and Shandly were laicized. I mean, really, I’m sure they were sorry too.
I cannot believe how insensitive the Vatican, Cardinal Law, and those on this board can be. To honor the cardinal, who would be in prison in most states right now for his actions in the abuse scandal (MA being an exception to the mandatory reporting laws), is disgusting. The message from the church is clear, shut up and don’t question us, you have no right to demand that rapists not be placed in your midst.
I am generally 100% in support of the Magesterium of the Church. I believe in obedience. However, I know the pain the abuse victems are going through, I also know how bad things are for my priest friends due to the actions of people like Cardinal Law. As a military man, I seldom question authority. However, just as it is a crime in the military to obey an unlawful order, it is a sin to be quiet about Cardinal Law being honored in this manner. The homilies of the novemdiales masses are instrumental in guiding the conclave. Apparentyly, the Vatican has spoken clearly on the issue of homosexual rape in the Church.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, but we must be always vigilent. Correcting the sinner is a work of mercy. Cardinal Law should be corrected.
I cannot believe how insensitive the Vatican, Cardinal Law, and those on this board can be. To honor the cardinal, who would be in prison in most states right now for his actions in the abuse scandal (MA being an exception to the mandatory reporting laws), is disgusting. The message from the church is clear, shut up and don’t question us, you have no right to demand that rapists not be placed in your midst.
I am generally 100% in support of the Magesterium of the Church. I believe in obedience. However, I know the pain the abuse victems are going through, I also know how bad things are for my priest friends due to the actions of people like Cardinal Law. As a military man, I seldom question authority. However, just as it is a crime in the military to obey an unlawful order, it is a sin to be quiet about Cardinal Law being honored in this manner. The homilies of the novemdiales masses are instrumental in guiding the conclave. Apparentyly, the Vatican has spoken clearly on the issue of homosexual rape in the Church.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, but we must be always vigilent. Correcting the sinner is a work of mercy. Cardinal Law should be corrected.
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fix
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SNAP has an agenda and it is not about authentic help for the Church or victims of abuse.
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Lurch104
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Believe me, I am NO fan of SNAP. However, when I see the actions of our heirachy sometimes I wonder if they don’t have a valid complaint. I love the Church, It breaks my heart when I see things going badly. Absolutely no good can come from honoring this man in such a way.
I find it ironic that the Vatican had the rape victims arrested for ATTEMPTING to protest, but Cardinal Law is being honored.
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Lisa_N
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That’s pretty harsh. I understand why people are still unhappy with Cardinal Law but is the pope’s funeral the time or place to make this an issue? Does this help their cause or hurt it? We Americans tend to think the world revolves around us and our problems. For most of the world, Bernard Law is a non-issue.
If you are unhappy with the laws in Massachusetts, then work to change them, if they’ve not been changed already. There are plenty of people who ‘should be in jail’ if one could simply make their own standards. But most of us are stuck obeying the laws on the books. As to canon law, was Bernard Law given a skate on that too? I truly don’t know but I can’t imagine that he was given a wink and a nod. It does seem like he suffered some real consequences as a result of his failures.
Well for one Cardinal Law is not a rapist and for another I see a completely different message from Cardinal Law saying the mass, that anyone can be forgiven. Those who believe he aided and abetted the pervert priests obviously believe he is guilty of grave sins. But even grave sins can be forgiven can’t they?
Really? If a child rapist were giving the homily I might agree with you. But Bernard Law may have been a poor administrator or he may have made some ill advised decisions. However he did not engage in these crimes nor have I seen any indication he maliciously protected pervert priests. Further he has certainly been punished. It’s not as if he were still sitting at the helm in Boston. He’s been banished to a foreign country, stripped of his titles, lost his reputation, and must take the ‘slings and arrows’ of those who will not give up persecuting him. It amazes me to see much more ire directed at Law than at the priests who perpetrated the abuses.
Why do you say he has not been corrected?
Wow I am utterly amazed at the sound and fury this issue creates. I guess you had to live in Boston or the northeast to feel so close to the Law situation. I’m also amazed this thread is still open.
Maybe the moderators aren’t aware of it.
LIsa N
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Lurch104
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Lisa N:
People are focusing on Cardinal Law, because on of the priests accused and convicted was murdered (a tragedy that MA should deal with, even though they are pedophiles, they should be protected), the rest laicized. Only Cardinal Law is still in the public eye.
Having been molested will tend to make you pretty angry. Shutting down threads that you don’t agree with also helps matters. Covering up abuses only makes things worse, the light needs to shine on these issues so that our wonderful priests can minister to their flock without having to worry about the accusing stares.
People are focusing on Cardinal Law, because on of the priests accused and convicted was murdered (a tragedy that MA should deal with, even though they are pedophiles, they should be protected), the rest laicized. Only Cardinal Law is still in the public eye.
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Trelow
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Lisa N:
St Peter denied our Lord three times, and abandoned Him at the cross, yet he still got to be pope.
sins are sins are sins. I’m sure everybody at this Holiness’ mass was a sinner. As am I, and not to insult, but Lurch, I’m sure you are as well.
Aye.
St Peter denied our Lord three times, and abandoned Him at the cross, yet he still got to be pope.
sins are sins are sins. I’m sure everybody at this Holiness’ mass was a sinner. As am I, and not to insult, but Lurch, I’m sure you are as well.
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Lurch104
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OK, I’ll play along. Then why are the priests that actually raped the children then laicized? If an “I’m sorry” is all that it takes to make the problem go away, why is there any punishment at all? I can forgive Cardinal Law, but I cannot get over the fact that he is still in a position of power in the Church after he allowed children to be raped.
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Tantum_ergo
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Lurch, just say that a school principal who knew about a colleague’s rape of a child (give him the exact circumstances of Law’s knowledge, in a time period just like Law’s, too), was found out.
Now, assume the man is a Catholic; he’s sorry, he is removed from his job, he confesses, does penance etc. (Of course, you’ll just have to “assume” he does penance, just like you would regarding any person, because you can’t be privy to the actual confession).
Now, this man was an excellent principal so far as administration, etc. goes; has a lot of germane knowledge, has had years of experience, etc.
So, after a few years, he gets a job as an adjunct or consultant to a school.
It’s still “in the field”, but the perks are nowhere near what he had; still, it is a good use of his talents and he does his best, trying to prove that he is sorry for his failures and still wants a chance to be useful.
Now, either you’ll see the parallels to the Cardinal, and agree, this man should be able to have a chance at a job. . .or you’ll think that, too bad, there are some things that are just unforgivable, and this man should not only not ever have a job, but should be booed, hissed, and vilified forever.
IOW, you’ll be saying that God is wrong, that there are some sins He WON’T forgive, and that we don’t have to have Him “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. . .instead, we have to have Him “forgive us OUR trespasses, but DON’T forgive those who trespass against us”. . .
Now, assume the man is a Catholic; he’s sorry, he is removed from his job, he confesses, does penance etc. (Of course, you’ll just have to “assume” he does penance, just like you would regarding any person, because you can’t be privy to the actual confession).
Now, this man was an excellent principal so far as administration, etc. goes; has a lot of germane knowledge, has had years of experience, etc.
So, after a few years, he gets a job as an adjunct or consultant to a school.
It’s still “in the field”, but the perks are nowhere near what he had; still, it is a good use of his talents and he does his best, trying to prove that he is sorry for his failures and still wants a chance to be useful.
Now, either you’ll see the parallels to the Cardinal, and agree, this man should be able to have a chance at a job. . .or you’ll think that, too bad, there are some things that are just unforgivable, and this man should not only not ever have a job, but should be booed, hissed, and vilified forever.
IOW, you’ll be saying that God is wrong, that there are some sins He WON’T forgive, and that we don’t have to have Him “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. . .instead, we have to have Him “forgive us OUR trespasses, but DON’T forgive those who trespass against us”. . .
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Sarah_Jane
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“Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her.” (John 8:7)
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BillyT92679
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And hopefully we all we go to Purgatory when we die.
Sotoriology has nothing to do with it. St. Peter also suffered mightly before Our Lord brought him back into the flock.
Cardinal Law very well will be saved and go to heaven. That does not mean he gets off from the temporal punishment due to him.
I agree with Lurch on this one. Cardinal Law did wrong, very wrong, and should have the dignity to step out into the limelight.
Lisa, as much as it might be inappropriate to protest during the novemdiales, this is the only time that Cardinal Law is having a place of distinction, possibly in the future as well. People who feel terribly wronged by the man are going to protest. He didn’t molest people himself, but he certainly did know about what was going on, and did very little.
And your point about it being a non-issue outside the northeast is incorrect. In many dioceses across the country there have been predatory homosexual priests. Both the victims and the 99.5% of the priests who did no wrong who now get stared at, belittled by so many would disagree with your basic premise. They would not feel that it’s a non-issue at all.
I think we have talked this to death though. It’s time to pray and move on.
We all love the Church here, and are orthodox sons and daughters. The Church is pristine, but her members are most certainly not.
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HagiaSophia
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Our local radio report said that two Americans showed up to protest and were hauled off—wonder who got to pay for the trip and the expense?
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fix
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Good news.
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Lurch104
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Tantum ergo:
In this case, the principle should never be put into a position where he would have to stand up and defend the defensless. As the pastor of a basicilla, Cardinal Law is in this position.
I sincerely hope he has confessed, done pennance, and is forgiven by God and goes to heaven. I hope this for all people no matter how evil they are. However, there should also be temporal consequences for his actions. How do you think those who were raped by the priests he protected are feeling seeing this man on the television today? What about their immortal souls? Do you not think that this may give them further cause (in their minds) to leave the Church (as if being raped by a priest was not enough). Do you think that they trust the heirarchy right now?
Sorry, your analogy is flawed. The principle had to know the colleague raped a child, covered it up, moved the rapist to another school, cover it up again, move him again, etc…
In this case, the principle should never be put into a position where he would have to stand up and defend the defensless. As the pastor of a basicilla, Cardinal Law is in this position.
I sincerely hope he has confessed, done pennance, and is forgiven by God and goes to heaven. I hope this for all people no matter how evil they are. However, there should also be temporal consequences for his actions. How do you think those who were raped by the priests he protected are feeling seeing this man on the television today? What about their immortal souls? Do you not think that this may give them further cause (in their minds) to leave the Church (as if being raped by a priest was not enough). Do you think that they trust the heirarchy right now?
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Lurch104
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BTW, please pardon the spelling errors, after rereading my posts, I can see that the more hurt I was by the comments, the poorer my grammer and spelling.
This issue just cuts me to the bone.
This issue just cuts me to the bone.
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Lurch104
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Sarah Jane said:
You are so right…lets close down the prisons today. Release all murderers and rapists. Who are we to judge?
Everyone, no matter how sinful they are is worthy of salvation due to the Paschal Mystery. However, we must also protect our young here on earth and minister to those who have been RAPED by priests ENABLED by Cardinal Law.
You may wag your finger at me when you advocate that someone who assaulted you get off scott free. Until that time, remember who the REAL victims are. Big hint, Cardinal Law is not one of them.
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Sarah_Jane
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You insults me because I quote Jesus-Christ…
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Lurch104
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I’ll say it again. How ironic that you cheer the arrest of two people who were RAPED by their priest and now by their church. While you support Cardinal Law who made it all happen.
Sometime I think I the worldd has been turned upside down. How dare you blindly support the rape of children just because the RAPISTS were clergy. I love the Church, I am extremely loyaly to and love the priests in my life, but RAPISTS and those who allowed the rape to happen should be punished, PERIOD.
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Lisa_N
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I’m still unclear what specific punishment Cardinal Law should receive that he has not been given. He has made a horrible error and basically he has lost everything he worked decades for. I cannot believe he is such a monster that he isn’t sick at heart thinking of the impact on young men who were molested. I believe he has confessed and has been given penance. Whether the judicial authorities dealt with him properly is not a factor here. Many think he should be in jail. But again, that’s not germane to THIS discussion.
Well there are those who will argue with you but like Martha Stewart he was charged with a coverup rather than comission of a crime. It appears he did obfuscate and refuse to provide documents until forced to do so. From my reading on the subject he was guilty of ‘rubber stamping’ various letters and appointments. I think he was ignorant and I think he was arrogant. I do not think he was aware that what he did contributed to horrific emotional damage to young people until it was too late.
No, you’ve misread my comment. I said the LAW situation seems to be very passionate in the NE and is not as big of an issue in other parts of the country. You are right we ALL had our share of pervert priests. Our diocese is bankrupt. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are going to lawyers and I think that’s an unfortunate use of our funds.
So in saying it was a non-issue I did not mean the priest scandal but the issue of Cardinal Law saying mass is just not getting the rest of the world as worked up as the folks from the NE area.
I think we have talked this to death though. It’s time to pray and move on.
And never have been unfortunately.
Lisa N
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demolitionman65
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Go Lisa!!! 
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