So are we supposed to hate ourselves?

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Edward_H said:
It’s not a fair way to begin a topic, cherry-picking a few quotes out of context in order to get to your foregone conclusion.
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It’s a pretty normal response to reading stuff like Thomas a Kempis or any of those “know that you are just a miserable worm” and “Jesus wants you to take no pleasure in life” type of books. If you don’t understand the context of this being a monastic humility exercise, sometimes further influenced by the culture in which they were written, they can be very hard to take. Many people who read these are not coming at it from a standpoint of feeling superior and proud of themselves; rather, they already feel like a piece of useless trash and wonder why God would want to bother with them. They read some private revelation that seems to say the same thing and feel even worse.
 
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Kei said:
Think of the Litany of Humility.
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I thought of it earlier because someone put it up on a thread. There are at least 4 versions of it. Depending on which one you read, some of them are very obviously directed towards getting rid of pride, the desire for admiration from others, etc. Other versions don’t seem so clear. One version asks Jesus to free the person from “the desire to be loved”. If we read “love” as meaning mass adulation or approval, then it makes sense, but what human in their right mind doesn’t want to experience being loved by their mom, their spouse, their kids, or even God? Some of these prayers and essays lose a lot in translation.
 
Ioana said:
Saint Louis de Montfort "Now, our Lord, who is infinite Wisdom, and does not give commandments without a reason, bids us hate ourselves only because we richly deserve to be hated. Nothing is more worthy of love than God and nothing is more deserving of hatred than self. "

and Thoms Kempis in the Imitation of Christ said “then love to be unknown and

considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel. To think

of oneself as nothing, and always to think well and highly of others is the best and most perfect

wisdom. Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider

yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain in good estate. All men are frail, but

you must admit that none is more frail than yourself.”
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Let’s take a time machine and go all the way back in Genesis when Adam fell asleep. And God procured Eve from his rib. Hating one’s self is giving one’s self in abandonment to God. If God is deserving of all our love and affection, how can we really hate ourselves?

Focus on the words where there is an asymptote departure. A paradox. If God is deserving of all our love, but we are not? But if we are to hate ourselves, how then can we know how to love? Hate and love? Can they co-exist? I think not. God’s love does not allow for sin to exist. For that is why sin is ultimately death.

Hating ourselves not to get in the way of God, Who is Love. That is key to the momentary reflections of the saints.

So, again, going back to Genesis. God said it was not good that man lived alone. But yet, God was there. How then was Adam alone? Was God saying His presence wasn’t satisfactory? Not really. For then nothing would had been completely made. He finally took rest (and that doesn’t mean God sleeps as we do. Rested could really mean He did not have to do a whole other creation in time and existence. He created that all things be made. All things physical were made. He took rest after Eve.

But again, getting back to Genesis. It wasn’t good that man live alone. Because, all that God gave Adam, in love. For that Adam was made in God’s image and after His likeness. Man cannot live alone. There’s no privation. He in other words must share of himself. And thus, that is why God took Adam’s rib, and made Eve. Thus, Adam had to be life giving, and share what was his. Adam had to love as God did. In self giving. And that is why we are called to hate ourselves to love another. To be self giving. To hate our own selfish deprived thoughts and desires. Remember, the saints were not declared saint until after they passed away. And, they were not perfect here on earth. They, were, sinners. And hence sin was in their passions. Thus, hating themselves to give themselves over to God above themselves. Not to be selfish, and have no self attachment. That’s all they meant by hating themselves. If I know for sure none of these saints starved themselves to death. And so since they didn’t. They took care of the body God gave them: to be stewards of creation.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
One version asks Jesus to free the person from “the desire to be loved”. If we read “love” as meaning mass adulation or approval, then it makes sense, but what human in their right mind doesn’t want to experience being loved by their mom, their spouse, their kids, or even God? Some of these prayers and essays lose a lot in translation.
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Not to free from love, but from the desire to be loved.
 
The distinction makes little sense for the examples I gave. It is not normal or healthy to be so selfless that you have no desire to be loved by your family or by God. The prayer would make sense if you prayed instead to put the needs and welfare of others, including your family, ahead of your own.
 
Jesus too was dejected, the greatest Servant. To serve and not be served, and in the Christian life, often the mystical life becomes a goal to be not only like Christ but to live in Him, and in this sense, I find it would make sense, but as a perfection of virtues (I speak of intellectual thought, I am not so righteous), and very, very, very far down the road in the spiritual life.
 
I agree that it makes sense once you are quite spiritually advanced, and I have been told by people that such writings are meant for those who have been immersed for a long time in some monastic or contemplative spirituality. Not for the average layperson picking it up to read.
 
I’ve read the first few pages but haven’t got around to picking it up again, I have enjoyed reading excerpts of it online though. Great stuff
 
I thought it was love your neighbor as you would love yourself.
 
Here is a quote from the same source.
"When a soul joined to God in the way described, the more love it has for God the more holy hatred it feels against its own “sensitive part”, or as we call it, sensuality. Love of God naturally leads to hatred of sins committed against God, and so the soul, seeing that the incitement to all sin reigns in the sensitive part and has its roots there, is moved by a great but holy hatred of the sensitive part and does all that it can not to destroy the senses but to annihilate the incitement that is rooted in them, and this cannot be done without great distress on the part of the senses. And because it is difficult for some root of sin, however small, not to remain in them–according to the words of St. John,“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not within us.” (1 John 1:8)–the soul begins to feel a certain dislike for itself, from which arise holy hatred and contempt of self, a hatred and contempt that defend it against the wiles of men and Devil. There is nothing that keeps the soul so safe and strong as this holy hatred, to which the Apostle referred when he said, “For when I am weak, then am I powerful.” (2 Cor. 12:10).
 
“O eternal goodness of God,” Catherine would say, "Catherine would say , “what have you not done! Out of sin you bring virtue, out of weakness strength, insult has brought mercy and sorrow happiness. Always, O sons, have within yourselves this proper hatred to make you humble, and you will always know yourselves humble . It will make you patient in adversity , moderate in prosperity, fixed in all the right ways, pleasing and acceptable to God and men .” And she would add , “Beware, O beware of anybody who does not have this holy hatred, for where it is missing love of self must necessarily reign, and that is the stagnant pool from which comes all sins, the root cause of every evil lust.”
From the Life of Saint Catherine of Siena by Blessed Raymond of Capua Tan Edition. Part One, Chapter Ten “Catherine’s Wisdom”, pages 69-70
 
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Hate here is used in a different sense than how it is usually used. Remember that all of these sources like the Bible were translated and some words are not able to perfectly translate.
 
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The concept of “self” that dwells in most of us is the greatest evil in the history of mankind and is said to have developed only recently in human history. We should hate the “self” that we think is our identity. We are called to be humble and know that life is through the spirit, and not the flesh. It’s important to note that the saints quoted are not condemning our soul but the “self” that falsely becomes our identity. We are all spiritual beings which is far greater than the “self” could ever hope to be!
 
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