So Catholics and Christians... how many Muslims do you know in Real Life?

[InJesusItrust]

I knew many Muslims in my international school. None of them were devout. Same with those of other religions. This was, after all, a part of Europe at the time.

I don’t think therefore that the ones I know personally can comment accurately on why Muslims in the Middle East attack and whether it is justifiable to Muslims.

 

[vera_dicere]

Outside of Church, I know more Muslims then I know Christians, particuarly at work. I know about 8 at the moment. I’ve known probably up to 20.

I find it interesting that those Muslims, as friendly as they are and as well as I get on with them, they don’t quite out and out denounce what is happening regarding the violence. They don’t seem to support it either, but they’re not condemning it.

When some idiot shoots an abortionist, all the pro-life groups come out and denounce the actions, but when stuff like this happens, where’s the outcry from the moderate Muslims who claim to be living their faith as written/intended?

Perhaps they don’t see a point, or maybe the media just isn’t reporting any public outcry from the moderates?

 

[IrishRush]

I work at a major hospital in Chicago and in my department, there are a large number of Muslims, some of whom I consider some of my closest friends. I would do just about anything for them. In fact, born and raised Americans are the minority in our lab. It makes no difference to anyone and does not affect anything. I don’t look at my friends as Muslim, I look at them as friends. That’s it. I hope they see me the same way. And when something bad happens in someone’s life, I tell them that I’ll keep them and theirs in my prayers. I’ve always been sincerely thanked for that. Prayers are prayers, right?

 

[4Squarebaby]

Considering I am in America where Muslims are less then 1% and Jews less the 2% of the population it seems kind of amazing to have many contacts with either group. That being said my little brother is one of the Nation of Islam’s Minister Muhammeds and he converted a cousin who became a conventional Muslim, who does not follow the letter of Islamic law as a Robert Spencer would wrte it and who re joined the US Navy in the days after 9/11.

 

[Tmaque]

I know a few and they are very liberal minded.

 

[MartinJordan]

I have several. Most of them young adults who I speak to nearly on daily basis. They each have different perspectives but mostly do not follow the religion like their parents do ie Friday prayers in Mosque.

I did not talk about the recent matter although it is in the news every day. I may have if the short film was by a Catholic.

MJ

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Zero for me…

The area where I live is multi-cultural. We have white people decended from people all over Holland and Germany

I did see a lot of muslims at IKEA recently.

 

[TimeEntrance]

The recent tussle in the Middle East due to a certain video tape seems to have sparked some rather interesting responses from different religious quarters.

While on an Islamic forum that I frequent, a few accusations were hurled about and so I decided to ask a question of the participants there.

The results were…expected… to say the least. But i was rather curious given all the vitriol that I tend to see on religious forums that I decided to ask the question here…just in reverse.

I by no means wish this to be an inflammatory thread, and invite the moderators to close is if it does become as such but…

My dear Catholics and your fellow Christians - How many Muslims do you know offline? Away from the vagaries of the internet? Are any of them your colleagues at work? Your friends? Do your children go to school together?

What has their been take on what’s going on? Do they feel a strained relationship with Non-Muslims? Has the sweep of current events strained your own relationship with your Muslim neighbors?

In one of my past university classes I got to know a young Muslim guy. I believe he was from Saudi Arabia. He was a pretty cool dude. He liked to “chat up” the young college women as the British like to say.

But I don’t know many orthodox Muslims. Most the Muslims in Black-America tend to be neo-Islamic members of the Nation of Islam.

But I do see many young Muslim women from the East on my university campus. They walk around with their heads covered in what I think is referred to as the hijab. Catholic women used to were their own European versions of the hijab. Matillas I think they’re called. But as a whole modern Catholic women in the U.S. have none of the modesty or publicly expressed devotion to God as Islamic women do.

I have little beef with Muslims. I believe overall 90% or more of them are motivated by basic human desires like anyone else on earth. They want food, security, a family, friends, and just basic courtesy extended to them and the population they identify with.

Islam is from my perspective a much more manly religion than Christianity. Especially today. Might have been less a gap centuries ago when the barbarian Germanic tribes fused their warrior/chiefdom ways into Catholicism to forge chivalry.

If you pay attention you’ll notice in images that orthodox Islam tends to have large groups of young - or older - males gathered in discussion and united cause. The women are off among the women on the sidelines.

For centuries now (not just a very modern thing) men raised Catholic have viewed going to Mass as a womanish activity. Not surprisingly Sunday Mass is dominated by women. A similar thing is occurring in many of the Protestant “Black Churches.” In fact, Black-Americans joke that the males in the black choirs usually are gay.

And I’ve seen more than a few effeminate males - from clergy to laity - in Catholic parishes during Mass.

But with respects to Catholicism the priesthood has always been charged as unmanly by Protestants because the priest typically are unmarried and refuse sexual intercourse with women.

The Muslim male has a lot riding on his voice because orthodox Islam allows him to marry non-Muslim women (Muslim women can’t marry non-Muslim men), and he can have multiple wives (Muslim women can’t have multiple husbands). And Mohammad was a real man’s man of a figure. He was as I like to say: La Cosa Nostra. Robbing caravans and taking many women as lovers.

I think the Islamic world makes less a mistake tolerating men among men blowing things up and killing than the Catholic Church in it’s mistake of allowing grown men to fondle little boys and preach peace and love - or whatever appeals to the ears of liberal women as opposed to men in the U.S. Army Rangers. Now TV is constantly making jokes stereotyping priests as either gay or gay boy lovers.

Never was the Church or priesthood been so denigrated during the masculine reign of violence under the venerable Irish Republican Army (IRA). Even immediately after 9-11 a lot of American women wanted a Catholic Irish man after that Irish Catholic firefighter spoke over microphone in New York City expressing rage and violence towards Osama Bin Laden.

I’m not saying Catholic men should be violent or that being unemployed, unmarried, no girlfriend or sex, and living with your mother, and turning the other cheek like Jesus did is wrong. It is radical in terms of what our standards for masculinity is. But what I am saying is that a “tough guy” in the IRA never brought so much public shame to the Church as a boy loving pedophile priest has.

So, I’ve no beef with Muslims.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

So, I’ve no beef with Muslims.

Buddy, you now have a beef with catholics.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Buddy, you now have a beef with catholics.

LOL. Hey… it’s a historical fact that Protestants for a very long time used to accuse the Catholic priesthood of lacking in masculinity.

Notice I did not say the priesthood is such. However, I’m well aware of images.

There is an image that has been created since the sex scandal.

But Jesus presented a radical image of what it is to be a “man” anyways. An image much different than the La Cosa Nostra “Men of Honor” that keep lots of money, mistresses besides their wives, and command fear and respect.

In fact, I remember a young Buddhist woman on a forum some years ago I was on, made fun of Jesus for not having a girlfriend and living with his mother. She went on to say she’d rather have a “real man” like Mohammad the Islamic prophet.

---

By the way… I had a Marine “friend” I served with that was a member of the Church of Satan. I’m sure most people would regard him as a good person. He did not rob or kill so far as I know. Basically the superficial things by which people judge others.

Today a little more wiser I would not associate with him. Not suggesting Muslims are bad. However, in the 21st Century, lets take away the term Muslim and replace it with American. And lets say I’m an American man that is fairly well to do financially, I’m 35, have 2 wives in their 30’s, and I take another as a wife that is 14 years old. Let’s say I sympathize with those that burn the American flag and curse Democrats (some of whom are American women) for disrespecting the prophet Mohammad in a secular cartoon.

Most would not think me a very good American man.

What I’m suggesting is the modern Western person has a disconnect between distinguishing subjectivity from objectivity.

 

[CrazyCarolus]

In one of my past university classes I got to know a young Muslim guy. I believe he was from Saudi Arabia. He was a pretty cool dude. He liked to “chat up” the young college women as the British like to say.

But I don’t know many orthodox Muslims. Most the Muslims in Black-America tend to be neo-Islamic members of the Nation of Islam.

But I do see many young Muslim women from the East on my university campus. They walk around with their heads covered in what I think is referred to as the hijab. Catholic women used to were their own European versions of the hijab. Matillas I think they’re called. But as a whole modern Catholic women in the U.S. have none of the modesty or publicly expressed devotion to God as Islamic women do.

I have little beef with Muslims. I believe overall 90% or more of them are motivated by basic human desires like anyone else on earth. They want food, security, a family, friends, and just basic courtesy extended to them and the population they identify with.

Islam is from my perspective a much more manly religion than Christianity. Especially today. Might have been less a gap centuries ago when the barbarian Germanic tribes fused their warrior/chiefdom ways into Catholicism to forge chivalry.

If you pay attention you’ll notice in images that orthodox Islam tends to have large groups of young - or older - males gathered in discussion and united cause. The women are off among the women on the sidelines.

For centuries now (not just a very modern thing) men raised Catholic have viewed going to Mass as a womanish activity. Not surprisingly Sunday Mass is dominated by women. A similar thing is occurring in many of the Protestant “Black Churches.” In fact, Black-Americans joke that the males in the black choirs usually are gay.

And I’ve seen more than a few effeminate males - from clergy to laity - in Catholic parishes during Mass.

But with respects to Catholicism the priesthood has always been charged as unmanly by Protestants because the priest typically are unmarried and refuse sexual intercourse with women.

The Muslim male has a lot riding on his voice because orthodox Islam allows him to marry non-Muslim women (Muslim women can’t marry non-Muslim men), and he can have multiple wives (Muslim women can’t have multiple husbands). And Mohammad was a real man’s man of a figure. He was as I like to say: La Cosa Nostra. Robbing caravans and taking many women as lovers.

I think the Islamic world makes less a mistake tolerating men among men blowing things up and killing than the Catholic Church in it’s mistake of allowing grown men to fondle little boys and preach peace and love - or whatever appeals to the ears of liberal women as opposed to men in the U.S. Army Rangers. Now TV is constantly making jokes stereotyping priests as either gay or gay boy lovers.

Never was the Church or priesthood been so denigrated during the masculine reign of violence under the venerable Irish Republican Army (IRA). Even immediately after 9-11 a lot of American women wanted a Catholic Irish man after that Irish Catholic firefighter spoke over microphone in New York City expressing rage and violence towards Osama Bin Laden.

I’m not saying Catholic men should be violent or that being unemployed, unmarried, no girlfriend or sex, and living with your mother, and turning the other cheek like Jesus did is wrong. It is radical in terms of what our standards for masculinity is. But what I am saying is that a “tough guy” in the IRA never brought so much public shame to the Church as a boy loving pedophile priest has.

So, I’ve no beef with Muslims.

Ummmmm… A lot of the religious Catholics I know are far from feminine… Same with religious black men. Honestly, it’s my secular friends that seem to do the most gender bending activities.

As for the OP, I don’t know any Muslims but I’m sure the majority are normal people living their lives.

 

[JillianRose]

Buddy, you now have a beef with catholics.

My thoughts exactly…Mohomand had a 14 year old girl convince him that he was a chosen profit when he had a “dream” that Gabriel the angel came to him a told him God chose him to set right “wrongs”. Historically, (according to the Bible) God went directly to his prophets, he did not send angels.

I don’t think a man with many lovers, and kills people who deny his blinded religion, is manly. Its sounds like the dumb jock on a football team. He may seem appealing at first but no one wants to be married to a Venereal diseased infected dumb jock.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Ummmmm… A lot of the religious Catholics I know are far from feminine… Same with religious black men. Honestly, it’s my secular friends that seem to do the most gender bending activities.

@ bold: true statement. But I never stated nor implied all Catholic male laity or priests are effeminate. What I basically said is that I’ve seen more than a few effeminate males in Mass. One of the priests that did my great aunts funeral Mass was very effeminate. And the tall, handsome, young black male that appears to take all the photos at my mothers predominately black Catholic church for Sunday Mass is very obviously effeminate. None of this makes either bad people. For all I know is they’re great people. And something ought be said positive (in my opinion) for a religion that tolerates effeminate males, especially during its sacred hours of worship.

I also will say that something positive could be said for the Catholic Church not just throwing the most despised people in Western society - pedophiles of any sexual orientation - simply to the wolves.

But this comes with an image price. Same thing with a celibate priesthood. But I think I ought say I have doubts that the first half of the 20th Century had as many effeminate Catholic priests as their have been in the last several decades I’ve seen.

And in Black-America - which I know very well - not many black men go to Sunday Protestant services. No where near compared to the numbers of women. In fact in some of these small store-front churches I swear I see about 99% of the people coming out of them being women and 99% of the males are their little boys they make come along.

Add to that that the Nation of Islam has for a long time charged that Islam is more masculine than Christianity. In fact, I think most Black-American males that convert either to the neo-Islam of the NOI or to orthodox Islam tend to agree that Islam is more masculine because it does not teach “womanish” things like let a person slap you around, take your things, or even enslave you. What it says is that not only should you have a woman but you can have two or three if you can afford them, and if someone comes to take your coat from you (rob you), don’t give it to them, punch their teeth down their throat. Like a U.S. Army Ranger or made Italian in the La Cosa Nostra (mafia).

I do have question because I don’t know the answer: when Muslim men go to mosque to kneel and worship are they side beside Muslim women during the same worship services or is it an all male bonding affair?

I partly ask because I see photos all the time of young Muslim men in the East standing in packs with one another - even outside mosques. And I might be wrong but within those La Cosa Nostra or Army Ranger like teamed up groups of men all the decisions seem to be discussed and decided. If kick butt and burn down stores is the decision that’s what goes down. Not a woman’s advice is sought - from the impressions I get (but those impressions may be wrong).

My thoughts exactly…Mohomand had a 14 year old girl convince him that he was a chosen profit when he had a “dream” that Gabriel the angel came to him a told him God chose him to set right “wrongs”. Historically, (according to the Bible) God went directly to his prophets, he did not send angels.

I don’t think a man with many lovers, and kills people who deny his blinded religion, is manly. Its sounds like the dumb jock on a football team. He may seem appealing at first but no one wants to be married to a Venereal diseased infected dumb jock.

Lots of women prefer a promiscuous male regarded as a “stud” - especially one that might have wealth from robbing caravans (banks, or heisting trucks like Sicilian/Italian mobsters) - to a man that would reflect characteristics of Jesus: Age 30 or over and unemployed, has sex with no woman, no girlfriend, walks around preaching morals with no job, lives off others (monetarily), and lives with his mother.

If Jesus were here on earth living like that today almost all Republican males would call him a loser and few to no women in the Democratic Party would find him attractive. In fact they would regard him as a loser too.

Add to that Jesus hung around the rejected - and many that would be called losers or worthless too.

Mohammad looked like Reagen, Obama, and the New Yorker John Gotti.

---

I do think the Catholic priesthood should start thinking about prohibiting (not getting rid of current priests like this) future men from the priesthood that are outwardly effeminate in mannerisms.

And it would do well to be less shamed by the historical Crusaders, the IRA, or football player, or street fighters than by gay oriented priests that seek to seduce and fondle little boys.

Other than that I think it ought retain some if not most it’s radical views on “masculinity.” Namely, to turn the other cheek or avoid fights even if it might mean giving up your coat. But like the Asian martial Artist say… there comes a point. And at some point it’s time to stand ground and fight. No more turning the cheek. No more giving up coats.

 

[CrazyCarolus]

TrueEntrance, I’d like to point out a few things in your post above, first and foremost, the nation if Islam is not considered orthodox Islam in the slightest, they believe Wallace Fard Muhammed was Allah which goes against Islam. I honestly think its more of a nationalist movement than a religion.

Second, Jesus actually did have a job, he was a carpenter. I really doubt anyone, be it republican or democrat would call him a loser after witnessing him heal the sick and blind, walking on water and being a generous guest at weddings. There’s a reason why he had numerous follows and it wasn’t because he was a hippy that let people smack him around, he was God himself and taught that love/goodness isn’t gender specific but a condition that allows us to truly be happy and be with The Lord. It’s too bad you view it belonging to a gender when in reality it’s for us all, masculine and feminine. There’s a reason why people who apply his teachings to their lives tend to live longer and happier lives.

 

[CrazyCarolus]

It wouldn’t let me edit my post, so I’m posting what I forgot to add. What I wanted to say was what some cultures consider feminine isn’t considered feminine at all in others. In a lot of Islamic cultures ( saudi arabia, where Islam started) men holding hands isn’t feminine at all lie, as it is in western culture, it conveys friendship to them. All I’m saying is your interpretation of what is feminine and masculine is completely subjective and pretty offensive to Christians. a lot of us Christians being manly still implies taking care of your family and standing for what is right.

Also, sorry op for going off rant… I just couldn’t let it slide.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I do have question because I don’t know the answer: when Muslim men go to mosque to kneel and worship are they side beside Muslim women during the same worship services or is it an all male bonding affair?

I partly ask because I see photos all the time of young Muslim men in the East standing in packs with one another - even outside mosques. And I might be wrong but within those La Cosa Nostra or Army Ranger like teamed up groups of men all the decisions seem to be discussed and decided. If kick butt and burn down stores is the decision that’s what goes down. Not a woman’s advice is sought - from the impressions I get (but those impressions may be wrong).

Generally speaking the women are separate and behind the men or separated by a curtain like Orthodox Jews would do.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_segregation_and_Islam

 

[Pilosopo]

It’s odd how the discussion moved from some simple questions about how well we know Muslims. Then it moved on about a comparison between religions, secularism, masculinity in this and that faith,what was awful about one or the other.
I went to a Jesuit university in a city where something a like a third of the population was Muslim. A few were friends, but not close. I studied their religion to some extent. I also helped organize a panel of religious leaders that included a local imam. In the end, they’re really no different from us, there are devoted, religious Muslims, and there are modern Muslims. I’m sure there are non-practicing Muslims.
In the end, I guess a good way to conceptualize human behavior-- and assuming how beliefs and values spur that on – is to remember the normal curve, Statistics 101. Most people fall in the middle region, but there will always be the outliers. I think the middle are about lives that lived in a safe and sane manner. A life that best approximates contentment. The God of Abraham bless us all.

 

[TimeEntrance]

TrueEntrance, I’d like to point out a few things in your post above, first and foremost, the nation if Islam is not considered orthodox Islam in the slightest, they believe Wallace Fard Muhammed was Allah which goes against Islam. I honestly think its more of a nationalist movement than a religion.

Which is why I referred to the Nation of Islam as neo-Islam and differentiated it from orthodox Islam. Kind of like Mormons are neo-Christians.

Second, Jesus actually did have a job, he was a carpenter.

No, he was unemployed like I said. Having been a carpenter does not mean one remains employed let alone employed in their skilled trade. Jesus walked around with a treasurer (I think Judas) and accepted donations from people and slept under the roof of strangers as well as his followers as a guest.

He was not working in one city pounding out 16 hours a day of labor to “bring home the bacon.”

I really doubt anyone, be it republican or democrat would call him a loser after witnessing him heal the sick and blind, walking on water and being a generous guest at weddings.

Yes they would. And they would not believe his miracles were real.

There’s a reason why he had numerous follows and it wasn’t because he was a hippy that let people smack him around, he was God himself and taught that love/goodness isn’t gender specific but a condition that allows us to truly be happy and be with The Lord. It’s too bad you view it belonging to a gender when in reality it’s for us all, masculine and feminine. There’s a reason why people who apply his teachings to their lives tend to live longer and happier lives.

I believe his following grew after his death an resurrection. He likely had few enough followers that his public execution wasn’t considered enough news worthiness to make in non-Christian writing. There is only one non-Christian source that only briefly recounts the execution of Jesus. Authored by that famous Jewish cat become a Roman historian or something. But He appears to have had enough enemies that He was put under Jewish Inquisition, found guilty under religious trial, and turned over to Roman authorities to give a sentencing.

I think you miss my point. I simply accept life on life terms. And in the real world it is the strong and “men of honor” that captures the worlds praise. Simple as that. I did not say nor insinuate Jesus took the wrong path. What I said is that his concept of masculinity was/is radical and contradicts “the world.”

Jesus was not rich (or at least we don’t believe he was), he did not have a woman, go around conquering men with force or fear, and he hung around the rejected of society. He was the complete opposite of a proud U.S. Marine Corps General or any President on the face of this planet.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

My dear Catholics and your fellow Christians - How many Muslims do you know offline? Away from the vagaries of the internet? Are any of them your colleagues at work? Your friends? Do your children go to school together?

I live in California, and am a grad student in the biomedical sciences. I know a lot of Muslims. Three of my colleagues in the lab I work in are Muslim, one of my instructors is Muslim, and my best friend (as of yet) is Muslim. I have no children, so the last question doesn’t apply to me.

A dear Palestinian friend of mine lost her father two and a half weeks ago, and so I went to a memorial dinner in his honor (on 9/11 of all dates). It was a very religious gathering, so I felt a wee bit uncomfortable praying with them, but they were very understanding. They fed me well, I offered my condolences… you know… what any reasonable, compassionate human being would do. Widows in Islam are not allowed to leave the house for 4 months after the death of their husbands, so I’ve tried to help out in bringing groceries to the house, picking up packages at the post office, etc. I sense the fact that she really wants to just let it all out and ball her eyes out, but she’s expected to limit her mourning to three days (which have long passed), so I respect that and am trying to just do what I can to distract her from her loss.

What has their been take on what’s going on?

They hold similar sentiments to mine: anti-religious bigotry is morally wrong. Nevertheless, the free exercise of speech should never be met with violence, no matter what is said.

Do they feel a strained relationship with Non-Muslims? Has the sweep of current events strained your own relationship with your Muslim neighbors?

I don’t think they feel a strained relationship with non-Muslims, though I haven’t thought to ask. I don’t see this as a Muslim phenomenon either, rather a cultural phenomenon in a part of the world where folks haven’t quite had the opportunity to cope with a heterogeneous society. Muslims here get it… because they’re from here, and have had a robust, and peaceful experience with others.

The seeming intolerance of so called “Islamic Society” is more a matter of culture than religion. To offer an anecdote: I have a Lebanese friend who is Catholic (Maronite Catholic, to be precise). Her cousin was murdered a couple months ago by family members for attempting to marry a Muslim. In other words, this Catholic woman was the victim of an HONOR KILLING by her Catholic family for the disgrace she was alleged to have brought upon them. Attributing this horrific act to Catholicism is just as foolish as attributing it to Islam, though I’m sure some fellow Catholics will try to qualify my post by saying such individuals weren’t “true Catholics”.

I love my friends, and I trust my life with them, and I hope they feel the same way with me.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on the topic please.