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Marybeloved
Guest
One of my closest friends is Muslim.
So Catholics and Christians... how many Muslims do you know in Real Life?
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TheAtheist
Guest
Thank you for your thoughts. If I may, i’d like to summarize findings thus far:
1.) I cannot speak for what the total membership of CAF would be, given the penchant for members to take up secondary accounts/identities (although the Moderators seem quite good at purging such situations), however I believe i can make the assumption that thus far the response to this thread has been small in comparison to the actual number of members.
2.) Of the actual respondents (+1 for Meltzerboy’s participation in the poll), many have cited higher education (college, university, etc) or job related environments for being the primary venues of interaction.
A handful of respondents (<5) are on actual familiar terms with the target population.
3.) Of the target population described, it sounds like the majority on this thread were interacting with Muslims akin to the “Dearborn, Michigan” brought to the attention of the public by TLC’s short lived series, “All-American Muslim.”
If i may borrow language for a second, they sound essentially like “lapsed” or “Cafeterian” Muslims.
1.) I cannot speak for what the total membership of CAF would be, given the penchant for members to take up secondary accounts/identities (although the Moderators seem quite good at purging such situations), however I believe i can make the assumption that thus far the response to this thread has been small in comparison to the actual number of members.
2.) Of the actual respondents (+1 for Meltzerboy’s participation in the poll), many have cited higher education (college, university, etc) or job related environments for being the primary venues of interaction.
A handful of respondents (<5) are on actual familiar terms with the target population.
3.) Of the target population described, it sounds like the majority on this thread were interacting with Muslims akin to the “Dearborn, Michigan” brought to the attention of the public by TLC’s short lived series, “All-American Muslim.”
If i may borrow language for a second, they sound essentially like “lapsed” or “Cafeterian” Muslims.
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
I have known quite a few Muslims, easily more than 100, including professors, physicians, etc.
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TheAtheist
Guest
My dear Usbek, while i’m sure that’s been an edifying experience for you, it does however place you on the thin end of the wedge of the forming CAF bell-curve.
May i ask, does it have anything to do with the Missionary Society work you do?
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tundramom
Guest
I have a “son” who is Syrian. He lived with us for over a year before he got married. He is very devout and I consider him part of our family. His wife is now like a daughter-in-law to me and they have two daughters who call me Grammy Steph.
We have had many talks about 9/11… talked about the Bible and the Qu’ran. He was displeased about the recent attacks although his entire family is going through a horrible time in Syria now. He is very concerned about all his Christian friends who live there.
Steph
We have had many talks about 9/11… talked about the Bible and the Qu’ran. He was displeased about the recent attacks although his entire family is going through a horrible time in Syria now. He is very concerned about all his Christian friends who live there.
Steph
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Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
Most esteemed TheAtheist: I don’t work for a missionary society; I broke insurance. My church is the Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, or Episcopal Church for short.
My experience with Islam comes from many sources. I live in the salubrious San Francisco Bay Area where many religions are practiced, I majored in Arabic and Islamic studies at the premier university there (not the little one, the one with four elements on the periodic table named for it). Knowing something about Islam, I am able to recognize a Muslim and thus I actually know when someone I meet is Muslim.
I am not, nor have I ever been a Muslim, but I was as a Baha’i for a very long time, and I believed in the prophethood of Muhammad. Don’t anymore.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I know some nominal Muslim business people from the Middle East. They are as indifferent to Islam as they are to Catholicism, don’t observe any Muslim thing, eat pork and drink alcohol, as long as it’s high-end alcohol. One married a Jewess who was equally indifferent to Judaism. One informed me that there are a lot of Muslims just like him, but said you can’t be overt about it in the M.E. You have to pretend. People know you’re pretending, but as long as you pretend, nobody messes with you over religion. But you can’t be critical of Islam, or you might end up dead.
I also know some European Muslims (Albanian and Macedonian). Indifferent to Islam. Non-observant. Don’t care who knows it. I have a feeling you can “go apostate” in those countries and nobody cares, other than perhaps your own family members.
I have no doubt there are many devout Muslims, but I just haven’t met one yet, that I knew about.
I also know some European Muslims (Albanian and Macedonian). Indifferent to Islam. Non-observant. Don’t care who knows it. I have a feeling you can “go apostate” in those countries and nobody cares, other than perhaps your own family members.
I have no doubt there are many devout Muslims, but I just haven’t met one yet, that I knew about.
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minkymurph
Guest
I don’t know any Muslims at the moment, and haven’t met very few Muslims.
For a long time I worked in a hospital and as such, worked with a lot of people of different Nationalities. I once worked with a guy from Libya. I don’t think he was very devote Muslim. He didn’t smoke and or drink when I knew him, but had done. He was a real womanizer. He was middle-aged and liked younger women. Used to buy women he fancied lots of presents and tried to persuade them to go away on trips with him. I also worked with guy from Iraq. He was an absolute ‘chancer’ as we say in my part of the world. He was from Baghdad and we used to call him 'the thief of Baghdad because he used to take anything that was shiny or pretty from work. He was a doctor and took silver trays used for instruments home for his barbecue.
He also had a low opinion of women and was pretty sexist by our standards. I also worked with another guy from Iran and he was lovely and adapted a lot to the West, and a guy from Saudi. He was very religious - showered if he touched a dog and that kind of thing. Very educated and a great conversationalist. I have to say, none of them were hard to get along with, all were very easy to get on with, and all of them were very entertaining in their individual ways. I know some Turkish people here. If they are Muslim I would say they are definitely not very good one’s because I see them in pubs and off licences all the time. Not that I’m judging them for that. I also worked with a guy from Sudan who was Orthodox. I really like him but he really did not like Muslims.My husband worked in Saudi for a year, and he said he found them quite easy to get on with. It took a while for them to accept him and another his workmate who was out there with him, but once they were very hospitable, inviting them for coffee at their home and that sort of thing. He also found people who worked in hotels had lovely manners and provided a really good service. There is an Indian boy in my eldest son’s class at school, and I don’t really like his family. I don’t know if he is Muslim or Christian, and he may be Hindu. My kids attend a Catholic school and lots of Muslims here send their kids to Catholic schools. Some Indians are also Christian as I see them at Mass. The reason I don’t like this family is because they just won’t mix. They don’t speak to anyone at the school gate or at school events like Sports Day, and their son is never allowed to go to birthday parties or to anyone’s house.
All in all, I would say the term ‘Muslim’ covers a very broad spectrum - as broad as the term ‘Christian’ - and covers all sort of Nationalities, cultures, opinions etc.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
I live in a very mixed area. In general this area is attractive to immigtrants of all kinds, in specific the neighborhood elementary school says the children speak 57 different languages at home.
We have a few good family friends that are practicing Muslims. Outside of those families, my daughter had several good friends in elementary and middle school who veiled (quiet, conservative girls tend to hang out together
).
I have worked with Muslims; right now most of my non-Christian co-workers are Hindu.
That said, the vast majority of our friends are Catholics or Christians because we spend more time at church and church-related (Christian) activities.
We have a few good family friends that are practicing Muslims. Outside of those families, my daughter had several good friends in elementary and middle school who veiled (quiet, conservative girls tend to hang out together
).I have worked with Muslims; right now most of my non-Christian co-workers are Hindu.
That said, the vast majority of our friends are Catholics or Christians because we spend more time at church and church-related (Christian) activities.
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Mystophilus
Guest
I have gotten to know lots of them over the years, mostly from schools: lots and lots and lots of Saudis, a few Omanis, some Kuwaitis, some from Dubai and the UAE, plenty from Malaysia (which has its own examples of inter-religious/inter-ethnic violence), some from Indonesia (like Malaysia), quite a few Iranians, a couple from China (and do they ever have stories to tell of being persecuted). They have, in general, been just like anyone else, and not too many have earnestly tried to convert me, although one bought me a translation of the Qu’ran and a collection of Hadith (both of which I have read), and another, an imam, presented me with a selection of tracts about Islam which are remarkably reminiscent of the Christian tracts handed out on street corners in Western countries; the young men, in particular, are much more earnest about football than about religious disagreements.
Their reaction to what’s going on has ranged from shock and horror to resignation and disappointment, both with the protests and with the USA’s handling of the broadcasting of That Film. It has not strained relationships at all.
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TheAtheist
Guest
Ah! My mistake. I tip my hat to your scholarship sir.
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TheAtheist
Guest
And right there do I see the smallest tidbit of hope…Outside of those families, my daughter had several good friends in elementary and middle school who veiled (quiet, conservative girls tend to hang out together
Thank you for sharing.
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Kirovsakya
Guest
No close personal friends, but I have a number of acquaintances who are Muslim.
When I established my business in 1999, I approached a local computer dealer to bid on my initial hardware requirements. He has been my IT supplier ever since. And yes, he and his technicians are all Muslim. Over the years, they have kept me up and running, no matter what.
About six years ago a Muslim family (parents and four children) purchased a home two doors from my residence. Their eldest son is now a university (dental) student and the younger kids attend local public schools. Have not had as much personal contact with their parents but the kids are all very well mannered, quick to lend a hand, drive safely - basic good neighbors.
Through this family and the computer shop guys, I have learned that dozens of my neighbors are Muslim too. In fact, I discovered that many Muslims in my town know each other personally and attend services at the local Mosque that is about one mile from my home. Their faith community includes those of African, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, European and American ancestry. I have heard several sermons. No vitriol, mostly scriptural lessons, call to ethical conduct in personal life, etc.
I am interested in religious faith, politics, current events. In my experience, my Muslim acquaintances generally do not introduce these topics into casual conversation (with me anyway). However, if I breech these subjects, they will seize the opportunity to explain their faith and personal views on world events. I get the impression that they are disgusted by all criminal behavior and (like any law-abiding citizen ) dissociate themselves from it.
Sakya
When I established my business in 1999, I approached a local computer dealer to bid on my initial hardware requirements. He has been my IT supplier ever since. And yes, he and his technicians are all Muslim. Over the years, they have kept me up and running, no matter what.
About six years ago a Muslim family (parents and four children) purchased a home two doors from my residence. Their eldest son is now a university (dental) student and the younger kids attend local public schools. Have not had as much personal contact with their parents but the kids are all very well mannered, quick to lend a hand, drive safely - basic good neighbors.
Through this family and the computer shop guys, I have learned that dozens of my neighbors are Muslim too. In fact, I discovered that many Muslims in my town know each other personally and attend services at the local Mosque that is about one mile from my home. Their faith community includes those of African, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, European and American ancestry. I have heard several sermons. No vitriol, mostly scriptural lessons, call to ethical conduct in personal life, etc.
I am interested in religious faith, politics, current events. In my experience, my Muslim acquaintances generally do not introduce these topics into casual conversation (with me anyway). However, if I breech these subjects, they will seize the opportunity to explain their faith and personal views on world events. I get the impression that they are disgusted by all criminal behavior and (like any law-abiding citizen ) dissociate themselves from it.
Sakya
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TheAtheist
Guest
I have often found that to be the case myself amongst my own friends and acquaintances.
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GraceSofia
Guest
I currently know 30-40 Muslims. They are people with whom I am friendly, but not close friends. Also, I lived in the Arabian Gulf for a dozen years so I’ve known a lot and at that time many of my colleagues and all of my students were Muslim. When I lived in the Arabian Gulf, I strictly avoided ever talking about religion with Muslims, as the slightest thing could be twisted around and land you in serious problems. Now I am not living in a Muslim country, but I don’t really discuss religion. I think there is an unspoken recognition that it will only lead to bad feelings. Many of them wish me well on Christmas and Easter, and I wish them well on their big feast days.
I will say, sometimes I feel I have more in common with Muslims than with Western secularists. I also find that they are more offended by the lack of reverence to God and to human dignity that they see in the West than they are by the practice of Christianity (talking about those living in Europe). Sometimes Muslims even “like” my Face Book posts which have Catholic content. Especially, but not limited to, ones against abortion.
I will say, sometimes I feel I have more in common with Muslims than with Western secularists. I also find that they are more offended by the lack of reverence to God and to human dignity that they see in the West than they are by the practice of Christianity (talking about those living in Europe). Sometimes Muslims even “like” my Face Book posts which have Catholic content. Especially, but not limited to, ones against abortion.
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TheAtheist
Guest
You wouldn’t be the first (of either religion) to express that sentiment.I will say, sometimes I feel I have more in common with Muslims than with Western secularists. I also find that they are more offended by the lack of reverence to God and to human dignity that they see in the West than they are by the practice of Christianity (talking about those living in Europe). Sometimes Muslims even “like” my Face Book posts which have Catholic content. Especially, but not limited to, ones against abortion.
Ultimately I think it falls back down to how one perceives the engagement with secularism and modernity.
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LisaA
Guest
One of the partners in our clinic is Muslim. I worked for him for about 20 years until he retired. He was instrumental in building a mosque and invited many to various events there. This was before 9/11. They are understandably more concerned now about inviting the public although this town has never shown any anti-Muslim activity. In fact it’s so liberal they went overboard in ignoring some would be terrorists who worked for the mayor! Not PC to bring up they wanted to bomb the local Jewish Community Center…dontcha know!
Dr A was always very gracious and included staff in various events letting us get to know certain Muslim practices. We all attended his daughters’ weddings and other family celebrations (Let me tell you a Muslim wedding is a delightful event as far as great hospitality). Through Dr A I met a number of other Muslims from his Mosque.
I always felt comfortable asking Dr A about religious matters and how their faith differed from mine.
That being said, he had a bit of a blind eye to radical Islamists saying well they are just a few here and there…which might be true but given 20 of them changed the world, it doesn’t take too many.
They were Westernized in dress and appearance…no headscarves or such. But in all other ways very devout, always attended prayers on Friday. In fact Dr A had a prayer rug in his office if he was unable to get to the Mosque. Although both daughters married Muslim men, his son dated a Jewish girl and he didn’t have an issue with her faith.
I also got to know a number of Iraqi Interpreters when I was volunteering for a troop support group. They were young men and not as devout in practice as Dr A but did identify with their faith.
So my personal interaction with American and Iraqi Muslims who were working for the military is positive. My feelings about Islamists though is very negative. I find the moderates are afraid to speak up and this will continue until they do.
Lisa
Dr A was always very gracious and included staff in various events letting us get to know certain Muslim practices. We all attended his daughters’ weddings and other family celebrations (Let me tell you a Muslim wedding is a delightful event as far as great hospitality). Through Dr A I met a number of other Muslims from his Mosque.
I always felt comfortable asking Dr A about religious matters and how their faith differed from mine.
That being said, he had a bit of a blind eye to radical Islamists saying well they are just a few here and there…which might be true but given 20 of them changed the world, it doesn’t take too many.
They were Westernized in dress and appearance…no headscarves or such. But in all other ways very devout, always attended prayers on Friday. In fact Dr A had a prayer rug in his office if he was unable to get to the Mosque. Although both daughters married Muslim men, his son dated a Jewish girl and he didn’t have an issue with her faith.
I also got to know a number of Iraqi Interpreters when I was volunteering for a troop support group. They were young men and not as devout in practice as Dr A but did identify with their faith.
So my personal interaction with American and Iraqi Muslims who were working for the military is positive. My feelings about Islamists though is very negative. I find the moderates are afraid to speak up and this will continue until they do.
Lisa
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I have known many Muslims and would count 4 among them as very close friends. They are of varying commitment to practice, but all are Sunnis. (I can’t recall ever knowing a Shii Muslum, at least not well.)
I met them either in school or via other friends. I think they see the things that Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer do here in the US as far more incendiary than this silly movie, offensive though it is as well. They would say that the reactions to the recent film are more about the clash between modernity/colonialism and traditional society than about religion–though religion is the usual convenient conduit to “vent” various other grievances against what is seen as a highly materialistic and secular “West,” uprooting their culture and way of life. Of course my friends as Americans don’t share these views and are as Westernized as I am.
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waanju
Guest
My best friend is a devout muslim. I also have a few (around six or seven) other muslims in my class, and I’m in the interfaith community service club with a few muslims. Maybe this is just because of our age, but with my best friend at least, she hasn’t really spoken about that kind of thing. THe only time she’s mentioned anything really about relations with non-muslims (in any context) was when we had to go to the airport extra early so that she could be “randomly” selected for a patdown (she wears a hajib).
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LisaA
Guest
Today I heard “A Conversation With the Cardinal” which is a wonderful hour with Timothy Cardinal Dolan on the Catholic Channel. This week he was speaking about penance in connection with Yom Kippur and also mentioned when he visited a Catholic college the Catholic students were amazed at how carefully the Muslims followed their faith. They said most of the Catholic students were somewhat casual but the Muslim students prayed regularly and more specifically were so observing of Ramadan, not eating all day.
As Cardinal Dolan mentioned, our practice of fasting has somewhat gone away and he threw out the idea that if Catholics aren’t asked or expected to follow these practices, does it lead to “slacking” in others. Not his words but that was the drift.
Having worked for a devout Muslim in a Catholic hospital, I will say he was very faithful with his daily prayers and attending Mosque on Friday afternoons. He mentioned though as he got older he didn’t have to fast during Ramadan and that he was quite happy not to go through that as it’s a month long!
Lisa
As Cardinal Dolan mentioned, our practice of fasting has somewhat gone away and he threw out the idea that if Catholics aren’t asked or expected to follow these practices, does it lead to “slacking” in others. Not his words but that was the drift.
Having worked for a devout Muslim in a Catholic hospital, I will say he was very faithful with his daily prayers and attending Mosque on Friday afternoons. He mentioned though as he got older he didn’t have to fast during Ramadan and that he was quite happy not to go through that as it’s a month long!
Lisa
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