So disheartened. Feel like leaving Church.

[Pax_et_Caritas]

sorry, but no. For example, once SSPX were considered heretics and thus excommuncated, the ordinations were not valid.

The SSPX’s orders are 100% valid. In fact, Rome has said a Catholic can fulfil their Sunday obligation at an SSPX Church, since their masses are valid.

If the Orthodox church is in a state of heresy, then they can not have valid ordinations, thus the succession is broken.

Coach,

Heresy has absolutely no effect on apostolic succession. In fact, I have never even heard of anyone who claimed that it did.

No offense, as know one knows everything, but you are very much mistken on this point. IF you look into it, it will not take you long to figure it out.

To be honest, I was struggling with Catholicism for some time, and the more I read here, the more I think I should distance myself from it.

Coach,

There is a lot of confusion in the Church today. As such, it takes a little more effort to keep the faith in our day than in did in times past. I’m sure you have a love for the Church, and want to be a good Catholic. It may be that you have been given some wrong or misleading informatoin about what the Church actually teaches. That is not uncommon in our day.

I have one suggestion. Do a google search and locate the encyclical called Saits Cognitum of Pope Leo XIII. It is very good and I think you will find it helpful.

 

[thecoach]

The SSPX’s orders are 100% valid. In fact, Rome has said a Catholic can fulfil their Sunday obligation at an SSPX Church, since their masses are valid.

Coach,

Heresy has absolutely no effect on apostolic succession. In fact, I have never even heard of anyone who claimed that it did.

No offense, as know one knows everything, but you are very much mistken on this point. IF you look into it, it will not take you long to figure it out.

Coach,

There is a lot of confusion in the Church today. As such, it takes a little more effort to keep the faith in our day than in did in times past. I’m sure you have a love for the Church, and want to be a good Catholic. It may be that you have been given some wrong or misleading informatoin about what the Church actually teaches. That is not uncommon in our day.

I have one suggestion. Do a google search and locate the encyclical called Saits Cognitum of Pope Leo XIII. It is very good and I think you will find it helpful.

thanks, but really not sure about Catholicism anymore, It just seems to that the vehicle is more important than the destination.

 

[mo1950]

I would like to encourage you to stay with it(the church) as so many others have said it doesn’t make sense to leave because of the failure of others to be faithful to the church. Many people think that it’s not possible to keep the “laws” of the church, especially the one’s concerning sexual chastity, in this generation. I would like to tell you that it is possible and I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO DO through the grace of the Holy Spirit .We are members of the “neo-catechumenate way” which is a way like the catechumenate in the early church to baptism.Although we are mostly already baptised hence the “neo”. It is a way to live your baptism and become an adult Christian living as Christ taught. We are called to be salt and light to the world and to witness to the love of God .

 

[thecoach]

I would like to encourage you to stay with it(the church) as so many others have said it doesn’t make sense to leave because of the failure of others to be faithful to the church. Many people think that it’s not possible to keep the “laws” of the church, especially the one’s concerning sexual chastity, in this generation. I would like to tell you that it is possible and I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO DO through the grace of the Holy Spirit .We are members of the “neo-catechumenate way” which is a way like the catechumenate in the early church to baptism.Although we are mostly already baptised hence the “neo”. It is a way to live your baptism and become an adult Christian living as Christ taught. We are called to be salt and light to the world and to witness to the love of God .

True, but I see nothing of “salt” in most of the posts here. The traditional bent seems to be hostile, uncharitable, and frankly, unchristian. Many here think that because they go to a Latin Mass or say prayers in Latin that they are good Christians. There tone tells different.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Dempsey:

I think one needs to realize that ultra-“liberalism” or “cafeteriaism” or whatever one wants to call it, is fundamentally a passing phenomenon; rather like the hippies of yore. That’s not to say there aren’t still people who adhere to the principles and notions of both. But, for example, the younger priests are, as a general rule, much more faithful to the magisterium of the Church than are older priests. There are orders of traditional nuns who do not have sufficient facilities for the young novices. There is a countermovement among lots of young people I know, to return to the more traditional practice of the faith. There are even new Catholic schools and institutions that are much more traditional. There are new bishops like Abp. Burke and Bp. Finn in my state, that are very faithful to the magisterium and traditional teachings.

It is sometimes hard to realize, when you run up against a bunch of things like you have run up against, that those things are actually passing away. I have more respect for, e.g., the SSPX than some do, and many are tempted in that direction. However, they have problems all their own, and I think it makes much more sense just to stick it out with the main body of the Church. Oftentimes, particular dioceses and schools are “islands of dissent” because of the bishop or the leaders of the school. But not all are, and those who are will change with time.

My father, who was really appalled by some of the bogus post VII “changes”, was tempted to go SSPX. But he often quoted to me that line from St. Paul that goes something like: “I have run the race. I have kept the faith”. And he did. I think of that everytime I run into things like you have run into.

 

[TuEsPetrus]

sorry, but no. For example, once SSPX were considered heretics and thus excommuncated, the ordinations were not valid. If the Orthodox church is in a state of heresy, then they can not have valid ordinations, thus the succession is broken. By the way, there are many rich fruits of spirituality in the orthodox church, to call then heretics because of papal power struggles in against all reason.

To be honest, I was struggling with Catholicism for some time, and the more I read here, the more I think I should distance myself from it.

There Ordinations were valid the SSPX ones btw, look at what happened in Campos, Brazil. The traditional Bishop who was ordained by 3 of the SSPX Bishops was completely valid so please, if you dont know simply dont be ignorant and assume them to be liek Orthodox. In Campos, Brazil that Bishop was not re-ordained, they are now under an Apostolic delegate now. What the Orthodox are outright heretics. They deny almost every single dogma of the Catholic faith. They are not Universal too, they dont even aknowledge the Roman Rite. You see Patriarchs of a certain place, is what makes the liturgy of the language, hence why we have the whole Western world tied to the Latin Mass. Since the Pope is the Patriarch of all the West. But in the Orthodox you have no Roman Rite, only Eastern Rites. Which they so claim to be “Catholic”, which by the way means Universal does not seem to correspond in their church teachings. If they really listened to the Fathers of the Church which they quote so much, they would beleive all of those infallible teachings which the chair of St. Peter has taught for so many centuries after the Great Schism. Orthodox do have spirituality, but they dont believe in purgatory and they look at us like we are the ones who are schismatics, they dont even consider “our ordinations valid”. Like we do to theirs. They are in the name of tradition like the Pharisees. They try rationalize their faith, which is so against the Scriptures (Dogmas so to speak of the Orthodox). If you study their prayers it has to be “Orthodox” and in line with “Orthodox teachings”. Spirituality has to do alot with what you pray.

 

[thecoach]

There Ordinations were valid the SSPX ones btw, look at what happened in Campos, Brazil. The traditional Bishop who was ordained by 3 of the SSPX Bishops was completely valid so please, if you dont know simply dont be ignorant and assume them to be liek Orthodox. In Campos, Brazil that Bishop was not re-ordained, they are now under an Apostolic delegate now. What the Orthodox are outright heretics. They deny almost every single dogma of the Catholic faith. They are not Universal too, they dont even aknowledge the Roman Rite. You see Patriarchs of a certain place, is what makes the liturgy of the language, hence why we have the whole Western world tied to the Latin Mass. Since the Pope is the Patriarch of all the West. But in the Orthodox you have no Roman Rite, only Eastern Rites. Which they so claim to be “Catholic”, which by the way means Universal does not seem to correspond in their church teachings. If they really listened to the Fathers of the Church which they quote so much, they would beleive all of those infallible teachings which the chair of St. Peter has taught for so many centuries after the Great Schism. Orthodox do have spirituality, but they dont believe in purgatory and they look at us like we are the ones who are schismatics, they dont even consider “our ordinations valid”. Like we do to theirs. They are in the name of tradition like the Pharisees. They try rationalize their faith, which is so against the Scriptures (Dogmas so to speak of the Orthodox). If you study their prayers it has to be “Orthodox” and in line with “Orthodox teachings”. Spirituality has to do alot with what you pray.

true. But I will never accept that the Orthodox are heretics, I dont care what dogma they dont share. They are believers in Christ, and brothers. Whoever is not against Christ is for Christ.

 

[socalsurfnici]

First of all the Church is an institution maintained by man, so do you really think it is going to be perfect?

And another question of mine do you really think that there is a Church out there that will support every single one of your beliefs?

I think not. Maybe the Catholic Church isn’t for you. I myself am Catholic, but I’ve been to alot of other denomination churches (Lutheran, Church of Christ, Baptist, etc) and they are making worship more contemporary (to attract the youth) and it seems you have a problem with this. But shouldn’t we all be able to worship Christ in the way we seem fit? Should everyone really push aside how they want to worship Christ in order to remain traditional? I think the Catholic church has had to grow in order to maintain the relationship it has with it’s parishioners. The word “Catholic” means universal so does it not make sense to believe that we should accept people wholly and their different beliefs. Should we turn people away from our chapels and various other houses of worship? I don’t think so. Christians want to worship God, why get so wrapped up in whether the person next to you on the pew has the same beliefs as you. Doesn’t the Bible say to not worry about others and their beliefs and not to judge? I understand you want to believe everything the church teaches, but just because you fully understand and fully accept all of the Catholic Churches teachings does not by any means make you better than a person sitting next to you that maybe doesn’t fully accept or fully understand. Remember, Catholics aren’t going to be the only denomination in heaven.

In your studies you probably read about Vatican II, the council changed the church to not be so narrow-minded. The church wants to open up its’ doors to other people that may have felt left out.

Here’s an example [ack! this is getting long I’ll end soon I promise]. I recently saw a video of Catholic missionaries vs. other denominational missionaries. They went to Africa and the other denominations went to the tribes and made them throw away old family heirlooms and relics since they believed they were paganistic, but the Catholic missionaries accepted the tribes’ relics and allowed them to keep them since they understood it was apart of their culture and identity. When the Catholic mass was held it was in the same format we have, but instead of simply walking the communion up to the alter the tribes performed their own dances, to make the church feel more close to their identity and culture, so they had something to relate to, whereas the other church made the tribes follow their strict rules about mass, etc. I think Catholics understand that taking a hardlined approach and making people follow the various law and rules is so legalistic and in the end it turns more people away.

 

[anthony022071]

The SSPX is looking more and more appealing.

Don’t be temped by the SSPX. They are not in communion with the See of Peter and thus are not part of the Church that Christ founded. They are schismatics.

sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html

sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id18.html

sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id60.html

sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id57.html

 

[thecoach]

First of all the Church is an institution maintained by man, so do you really think it is going to be perfect?

And another question of mine do you really think that there is a Church out there that will support every single one of your beliefs?

I think not. Maybe the Catholic Church isn’t for you. I myself am Catholic, but I’ve been to alot of other denomination churches (Lutheran, Church of Christ, Baptist, etc) and they are making worship more contemporary (to attract the youth) and it seems you have a problem with this. But shouldn’t we all be able to worship Christ in the way we seem fit? Should everyone really push aside how they want to worship Christ in order to remain traditional? I think the Catholic church has had to grow in order to maintain the relationship it has with it’s parishioners. The word “Catholic” means universal so does it not make sense to believe that we should accept people wholly and their different beliefs. Should we turn people away from our chapels and various other houses of worship? I don’t think so. Christians want to worship God, why get so wrapped up in whether the person next to you on the pew has the same beliefs as you. Doesn’t the Bible say to not worry about others and their beliefs and not to judge? I understand you want to believe everything the church teaches, but just because you fully understand and fully accept all of the Catholic Churches teachings does not by any means make you better than a person sitting next to you that maybe doesn’t fully accept or fully understand. Remember, Catholics aren’t going to be the only denomination in heaven.

In your studies you probably read about Vatican II, the council changed the church to not be so narrow-minded. The church wants to open up its’ doors to other people that may have felt left out.

Here’s an example [ack! this is getting long I’ll end soon I promise]. I recently saw a video of Catholic missionaries vs. other denominational missionaries. They went to Africa and the other denominations went to the tribes and made them throw away old family heirlooms and relics since they believed they were paganistic, but the Catholic missionaries accepted the tribes’ relics and allowed them to keep them since they understood it was apart of their culture and identity. When the Catholic mass was held it was in the same format we have, but instead of simply walking the communion up to the alter the tribes performed their own dances, to make the church feel more close to their identity and culture, so they had something to relate to, whereas the other church made the tribes follow their strict rules about mass, etc. I think Catholics understand that taking a hardlined approach and making people follow the various law and rules is so legalistic and in the end it turns more people away.

I agree

 

[anthony022071]

thanks, but really not sure about Catholicism anymore, It just seems to that the vehicle is more important than the destination.

That’s more true of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox conflate their Byzantine cultural heritage and traditions and theology with the truth itself,so that there is little allowance for other cultural expressions,other rites,other theological thought outside of the Greek or Cappadocian tradition.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

thanks, but really not sure about Catholicism anymore, It just seems to that the vehicle is more important than the destination.

I started to comment on this concern of yours earlier…

Jesus, His Church, and the doctrines taught by the Church are, in a sense, three in one. Jesus is the head of the Church, the Church is His mystical body, and the doctrinal teachings of Jesus are made known to us through the Church. We are united to Jesus in two ways: Firstly, by believing the doctrines He teaches, and secondly by grace. Grace is the most perfect of the two (and the one that saves us), but faith is necessary for us to possess grace. If we don’t have the true faith, we cannot have grace.

In our day the doctrines of the Church (which unite us to Christ) are under a great attack… and from all sides. The reason you are seeing such an emphasis on doctrine is precisely because they are being attacked, and therefore people are focused on defending them - as they should be.

You are in the Traditional Catholic section of this message board. Traditional Catholics are known for their strong defense of the doctrinal teachings of the Church. If you are interested in seeing people talk about their relationship with Jesus, the best section would be the spirituality thread. In that section, you will probably not see as much focus on doctrines, but more focus on prayer, etc.

The doctrines are the foundation of the Church. They are what make up the Catholic faith, and what unite us inellectually to Jesus. If the doctrinal teachings become distorted and eventually fade away, you will see the end of the true Faith and thus an end to the Church that Jesus established.

Now, that is not going to happen, but it would happen if the doctrines were allowed to be destroyed - which is what the enemy is trying to do (and is being very successfull at). Traditional Catholics realize this (as did the Fathers of the Church, by the way), and therefore they fight for the faith - which means, they fight to defend the doctrinal teachings of the Church.

It may seem like there is too much focus on doctrine, but that is because you are in the section where the doctrines are discussed and defended; and they are discussed and defended because they are coming under a great attack. And the attack is often very subtle. Often it is not a direct attack on the doctrines, but rather an indirect attack. The end result is that people becomes very confused over what the Church actually teaches.

I can guarantee you this: The true teachings of the faith are much better than any distorted teachings that you may have been taught. Therefore, don’t be discouraged if you find that you have a wrong idea of certain teachings. Instead, use this as an opportunity to grow in the true faith. Don’t let yourself be a victim of the present confusion. Instead become a defender of the faith - like the Church Fathers were. The Church needs strong defenders of the Faith today more than ever.

You can start anew by reading the encyclical I mentioned - Satis Cognitum. And I’ll make it easy for you by providing a link…

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13satis.htm

 

[anthony022071]

I cringe when I hear of african masses and ‘international’ Masses. Am I being uptight?

Catholicism need not be limited to the Latin rite in order to be authentic. Catholic means “universal”. In Acts 2,the first Christians,the disciples spoke in many languages under the influence of the Holy Spirit,so that the bystanders of many nations would hear and understand.

What matters is universal adherence to the doctrines of the See of Peter,not universal adherence to the Latin rite. The truth should not to be limited to any language or cultural expression.

 

[JudyLH]

Okay, I hope I don’t sound totally dense, but I’m new here so I’m hoping some kind soul will take pity and help me out.

I keep seeing acronyms and expressions being used, and I don’t know what they are.

What is SSPX?

What is indult?

There was another one, but now I’ve lost it. Anyway, if someone could please explain these two expressions, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,
Judy

 

[SemperFidelis]

Catholicism need not be limited to the Latin rite in order to be authentic. Catholic means “universal”. In Acts 2,the first Christians,the disciples spoke in many languages under the influence of the Holy Spirit,so that the bystanders of many nations would hear and understand.

What matters is universal adherence to the doctrines of the See of Peter,not universal adherence to the Latin rite. The truth should not to be limited to any language or cultural expression.

I think Dempsey is imagining something different than what you are thinking. In the past as well as in the present some African cultures have brought their pagan traditions into the Church. This is not in line with the teachings of the See of Peter.

 

[BonnieBj]

I too am a revert and very glad of the mercy of God bringing me back “home.” For correctness in Church teachings rely on the cathecism and the info you can get from Vatican sites and also our good people here in the forum. And there are numerous good books by reliable folks out there. EWTN carries excellent programs for leanring Church dogma, including ones by Scott Hahn and Fathers Pavone and Trigilio. From these sources you can get your answers. Find a priest that you are comfortable with, if possible. But do go ahead with your confirmation. Many of us have had to go prist-hunting to find one that is conservative and in line with the Church’s teachings.

In my own case, and my husband’s who is a convert, we did these things and thoroughly studied. We made our committment to the Church with full knowledge and determination to follow the Church’s teachings even if we didn’t personally agree with some of them, because we placed ourselves under obedience to the Church.

Don’t give up, and we’re looking forward to hearing that you’ve been confirmed.

 

[TuEsPetrus]

**First of all the Church is an institution maintained by man, so do you really think it is going to be perfect?**B]

And another question of mine do you really think that there is a Church out there that will support every single one of your beliefs?

Here’s an example [ack! this is getting long I’ll end soon I promise]. I recently saw a video of Catholic missionaries vs. other denominational missionaries. They went to Africa and the other denominations went to the tribes and made them throw away old family heirlooms and relics since they believed they were paganistic, but the Catholic missionaries accepted the tribes’ relics and allowed them to keep them since they understood it was apart of their culture and identity. When the Catholic mass was held it was in the same format we have, but instead of simply walking the communion up to the alter the tribes performed their own dances, to make the church feel more close to their identity and culture, so they had something to relate to, whereas the other church made the tribes follow their strict rules about mass, etc.

Once again truth is objective so, regardless if you beleive in it or not. You know what, St. John Chrysostom and St. Benedict of Nursia, did when they saw the false pagan statues. They threw it away and burned the temple, and did not even associate with that. I am not one too speak, their actions speak for themselves. I think what you are looking for is something that comforts you when you sin and think that, “God will understand”. Once again I repeat what I said heaven is an exclusive club. What makes you think that those who wholly believe every single dogma of faith and practice their faith will be saved, who are Catholics GOOD catholics. Just think of the all the christian denominations afterwards. Only way I see those guys getting saved is dying at a early age after their babtism. After their first mortal sin, I would nto know what to say, but leave it to God’s Almighty judgement. Orthodox are heretics, yes they are but it does not mean they have some truth just like the Protestants. We never denied that, just who wants to have 100% of the truth pie, or just 1-99% does not satisfy me. I want to whole thing and that is what the Orthodox are missing. They are certainly people I pray too come back to the Church and many many Popes have tried too. Orthodox critizice the CC too much on matters of discipline and conclude the wrong things, for example. Celibate Priest, I know a lot of people that want to change to Eastern tradition just because of that. That is a complete perversion of what religion is, just change to Orthodox or change from Roman Rite to Eastern Rite just because you want to become a religious and cant hold back your animal instincts for God? I say to those who want to change from Roman to Eastern for this sake, exactly what Luther did and King Henry VIII did. They changed their whole religion just to accomadate that which they want to keep. You dont convert to change the church, you convert to become part of the Church. The missionary example is horrible, because the only way you should change the mass is if its being for 200 years or longer in blended in the tradition of the place. (QUO PRIMUM St. Pope Pius V) You should read it.

 

[VL93]

Okay, I hope I don’t sound totally dense, but I’m new here so I’m hoping some kind soul will take pity and help me out.

I keep seeing acronyms and expressions being used, and I don’t know what they are.

What is SSPX?

What is indult?

There was another one, but now I’ve lost it. Anyway, if someone could please explain these two expressions, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,
Judy

SSPX = Society of Saint Pius X

Indult = a Traditional Latin Mass offered by indult (permission) of the local Bishop - according to the Ecclesia Dei legislation (1988) of Pope John Paul II (i.e. previous to Pope Benedict’s recent motu proprio Summorum Pontificum more completely freeing the TLM - the “extraordinary” form of the Roman Rite)

Hope this helps.

 

[Steve_Sanborn]

It’s important to be more technically correct about the Motu Proprio. Pope Benedict XVI did not free the mass. He recognized that the mass was never abrogated, i.e., it was never not free. This is a very important point.

Steve Sanborn

 

[Mannyfit75]

I came home to the Church about a month ago and I attend an indult Latin Mass.

I fully believe in everything that the Church teaches…but I feel like leaving the Church. I’m so disheartened. Here’s the story:

Like I said, I’m a recent revert and I have been meeting with my parish priest for the last two weeks because I want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation. I have spent about 4 years reading and learning about the faith; I wanted to make sure that I believe in EVERYTHING the Church teaches. I would never enter the Church and become a ‘cafeteria Catholic’. As a result of this study, I now have a pretty thorough understanding of doctrine and belief etc.

I was very excited about meeting with my priest every week but now I wish I didn’t bother.

It seems that every Catholic I meet is a liberal who is against the Church’s moral teachings. I recently started University and I visited the Catholic Chaplaincy. The Priest was great but the place seems very liberal, for example, the room where they say Mass has a gay pride flag pinned to the wall. One of the chaplains is an ex-nun (which seems strange). They also let non-Catholics worship there/use the facilities eg. chapel etc.

I’ve just came back from my weekly meeting with the Priest and I feel very demoralised. I decided that I would ask the Priest about everything that troubled me about Catholicism. I don’t think it went well. I asked him about ecumenism and the need for other Christians to become Catholics. He said that the Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ per se, but that the Church of Christ subsists in it. He said that the Church of Christ is actually the large fellowship of all Christians, irregardless of denomination. He did say that the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith however. He also said that the Roman Catholic Church had placed too much emphasis on the primacy of the Pope and that more needs to be done to accomodate the Orthodox.

I asked him whether he believed in contraception and he didn’t give me an answer. He told me that most Catholics in this country do not have a problem with contraception and that it is not an infallable teaching. I told him that I was against contraception and he looked less than impressed. I told him that I could not in good conscience ever use a condom and he said that while this is ‘proper’ most Catholics disagree.

I told him that I will keep attending the Latin Mass and that I hope other younger people will attend. He didn’t greet that comment with enthusiasm either.

At the end of the meeting, he asked me whether I would like to keep seeing him. I told him that I still wanted to be confirmed but he seemed less enthusiastic than he was last week.

I’m starting to think that there are no faithful Catholics left. Everyone I meet seems so hypocritical. I’m gutted because I really believe what the Church teaches, but it seems that the church is infested with dissenters who look down on orthodox catholic teaching. I wish I met Catholics like the ones on this forum.

I feel like leaving the Church…everyone seems so hypocritical…even the Priests. I don’t know what to do. The SSPX is looking more and more appealing. I’m feel very upset at the moment .

Have you offer any prayers, almsgiving, and spend one hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament for Holy Hour? or have you even consider praying for those Catholics, especially those in the religious life that they be adhere the the Teachings of the Catholic Church?

If you done none of those, then that is the problem. No prayers. No grace will be given unto them. They will not be moved by the Holy Spirit, and will received less grace.