So do angels put you in Hell or do you yourself?

[Vico]

…

Also I am reminded of Col 1:24

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 24. And fill up those things…in my flesh for his body, which is the church.[5] Nothing was wanting in the sufferings or merits of Christ, for a sufficient and superabundant redemption of mankind, and therefore he adds, for his body, which is the church, that his sufferings were wanting, and are to be endured by the example of Christ by the faithful, who are members of a crucified head. See St. Chrysostom and St. Augustine. (Witham) — Wanting. There is no want in the sufferings of Christ himself as head; but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come in his body, the Church, and his members, the faithful. (Challoner) — St. Chrysostom here observes that Jesus Christ loves us so much, that he is not content merely to suffer in his own person, but he wishes also to suffer in his members; and thus we fill up what is wanting of the sufferings of Christ. (St. Chrysostom) — The wisdom, the will, the justice of Jesus Christ, requireth and ordaineth that his body and members should be companions of his sufferings, as they expect to be companions of his glory; that so suffering with him, and after his example, they may apply to their own wants and to the necessities of others the merits and satisfaction of Jesus Christ, which application is what is wanting, and what we are permitted to supply by the sacraments and sacrifice of the new law.

 

[thinkandmull]

You wrote above that “So it seems that I agree with you that there is no basis for the loss of souls because nobody did prayer or penance for them.” Yet Fatima says “many souls **go to hell **because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.”

All the Faustina revelation says is God is allowing someone to rely on another’s prayers, but not absolutely, because God will always approach the sinner until their is not room left in the sinner’s heart, as it says elsewhere in the diary

 

[thinkandmull]

I am one who doesn’t put much stock in private revelations. It quotes the seers in a couple books on Fatima as relating that in one vision Mary was wearing a skirt that went just below the knees. Organizations like TFP would throw a fit of they heard that. Not sure I **absolutely **disagree with them.

 

[Vico]

I am one who doesn’t put much stock in private revelations. It quotes the seers in a couple books on Fatima as relating that in one vision Mary was wearing a skirt that went just below the knees. Organizations like TFP would throw a fit of they heard that. Not sure I **absolutely **disagree with them.

They seem to agree in general with the Catechism. However, the Catechism emphasized that grace and merit is from God.

Catechism of the Catholic Church****2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions. 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

 

[thinkandmull]

Being lost forever because another person didn’t cooperate with God is another matter entirely

 

[Vico]

Being lost forever because another person didn’t cooperate with God is another matter entirely

Of course. What the Catechism emphasizes is that we can merit for others for their sanctification, which is a participation, not that God will not help those that are not prayed for.
CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

 

[Vico]

You wrote above that “So it seems that I agree with you that there is no basis for the loss of souls because nobody did prayer or penance for them.” Yet Fatima says “many souls **go to hell **because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.”

All the Faustina revelation says is God is allowing someone to rely on another’s prayers, but not absolutely, because God will always approach the sinner until their is not room left in the sinner’s heart, as it says elsewhere in the diary

It occurred to me that “many souls **go to hell **because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.” could be true, because:

1. A miracle at the last moment, by God, may be insufficient to sway a persons will. This is backed by scripture, The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: Luke 16:27-31, Rich man speaking to Abraham, after his death, that to send one from the dead to testify, even with a resurrection:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
2. The intercession (prayers and actions) of the faithful earlier during the life of the subject may have an effect such that a conversion occurs. Especially considering that bad habits and even the erosion of venial sins can lead to mortal sin, this may bring with it a change in thinking to embrace evil stronger. Catechism:
   953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

 

[thinkandmull]

So you are saying that humans can be necessary to a limited extent for another’s salvation?

I remember Aquinas, taking this further, say in respect to Augustine that some people would not be saved unless some other people were damned. So in that system everyone has enough grace to go to heaven, but its impossible for the whole human family to actually make it to heaven together. To me, that doesn’t sound quite right

 

[Vico]

So you are saying that humans can be necessary to a limited extent for another’s salvation?

I remember Aquinas, taking this further, say in respect to Augustine that some people would not be saved unless some other people were damned. So in that system everyone has enough grace to go to heaven, but its impossible for the whole human family to actually make it to heaven together. To me, that doesn’t sound quite right

Suppose that the Most Holy Trinity plans to use the faithful, knowing who will cooperate with His given graces, to help one another to be saved. This allows for participation in the plan of salvation. Those that have final repentance and are saved might only be those that were helped by the community of the faithful.

1 Timothy 21 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The example of Jesus Christ:

** John 8:28-29**
28 Jesus therefore said to them: When you shall have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know, that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father hath taught me, these things I speak: 29 And he that sent me, is with me, and he hath not left me alone: for I do always the things that please him.

 

[thinkandmull]

We must say, though, that a person can be saved regardless of what other people do, but perhaps if he gives up some of his chances his final chances will be based on others’ actions because we are a community. That’s an acceptable position to me

 

[Vico]

We must say, though, that a person can be saved regardless of what other people do, but perhaps if he gives up some of his chances his final chances will be based on others’ actions because we are a community. That’s an acceptable position to me

That would say that God would never make others participation mandatory for salvation.

 

[thinkandmull]

In that case someone could not get to heaven without someone else. That’s contrary to what Jesus won on the Cross. Yet if we fail to accept the Cross several times, maybe only a human WITH God instead of God alone could save us then. That’s what Fatima said

 

[Vico]

In that case someone could not get to heaven without someone else. That’s contrary to what Jesus won on the Cross. Yet if we fail to accept the Cross several times, maybe only a human WITH God instead of God alone could save us then. That’s what Fatima said

Since we do not by nature have the ability to be saved, but receive it as a gift from God, there is no conflict in the Redemption and that “someone could not get to heaven without someone else.” I don’t understand the Fatima reference.

 

[thinkandmull]

We started this discussion from someone quoting Fatima in which is was said that there are many people in hell because there wasn’t enough people praying for them. Strictly speaking everyone has the ability to get to heaven, even if every else doesn’t pray. Perhaps if we fall into mortal sin, God can only save us then through the pray of another

 

[Vico]

We started this discussion from someone quoting Fatima in which is was said that there are many people in hell because there wasn’t enough people praying for them. Strictly speaking everyone has the ability to get to heaven, even if every else doesn’t pray. Perhaps if we fall into mortal sin, God can only save us then through the pray of another

What was confusing was “a human with God”. There is always “a human” the subject to be saved.