"So, faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:18)

Isaiah45_9 · Jan 17, 2013

Gaelic_Bard said:
True. James, however, I would contend is decidely using faith not as a supernatural virtue given to man by grace . He is instead focusing upon a *profession * of faith. Hence his use of the language…“you say you have faith.” Another way to paraphrase James’ statement is “So you know that a man is shown to be right with God, not only by his profession of faith, but also by his works.”

This is in harmony with Paul’s numerous discussions of the importance of obedience and good works. However, if we say that what James is saying is that we are justified by faith (as a grace) and works, then we force him to contradict Paul.

Well, if the Holy Spirit did not compel Paul to add the word “alone” to his statement…

Who are we to do so?

Gaelic_Bard · Jan 17, 2013

Isaiah45_9 said:
Well, if the Holy Spirit did not compel Paul to add the word “alone” to his statement…

Who are we to do so?

Pail says we are justified by faith apart from works. Alone fits the passage because Paul is establishing that faith apart from anything else justifies. If we assert that James is saying we are also justified by works, then we make Paul and James contradict.

Stilldreamn · Jan 17, 2013

Bookcat:
Thank you for posting these Vatican links, Bookcat.

Isaiah45_9 · Jan 17, 2013

Gaelic_Bard said:
Pail says we are justified by faith apart from works. Alone fits the passage because Paul is establishing that faith apart from anything else justifies. If we assert that James is saying we are also justified by works, then we make Paul and James contradict.

Brother, fitting is a dangerous road I am not willing to travel. As such, I will leave it at what the Apostles under guidance of the Spirit of Truth intended.

Isaiah45_9 · Jan 17, 2013

Bookcat:
Thanks for the links!

I noticed one of the links has this:

Saint Paul (14):

Does it mean number 14 in a series? If so, do you know if the series are available?

Thanks,

Jose

JonNC · Jan 17, 2013

Isaiah45_9 said:
Well, if the Holy Spirit did not compel Paul to add the word “alone” to his statement…

Who are we to do so?

The issue is one of translation. German is not Greek, hence Luther’s belief that “allein” belonged to portray the sense of the text, as Greek does not translate directly to German. English, OTOH, is not German. In the English, no translation I know of includes the word “alone” in Romans 3:28.

So, it isn’t a simple matter of what the Holy Spirit compelled St. Paul to write.

Jon

Bookcat · Jan 17, 2013

Gaelic_Bard said:
Thanks for these, Bookcat! Benedict is indeed wise. I wish he’d expanded on his faith through charity statement. Of course, I know he didn’t have time to engage it at length.

Not sure which one…but a few readings of them may see some aspects that were missed.

Also this being the “Year of Faith” there has been and will be much more said by him on the subject of Faith ( vatican.va/special/annus_fidei/index_catechesi_annus-fidei_en.htm etc) (and a new Encyclical on Faith coming out in the next few months…keep an eye out for that)

Bookcat · Jan 17, 2013

Isaiah45_9 said:
Thanks for the links!

I noticed one of the links has this:

Does it mean number 14 in a series? If so, do you know if the series are available?

Thanks,

Jose

Yes from the year of Paul: online there and in book form from Ignatius

Khalid · Jan 17, 2013

Gaelic_Bard said:
Welcome to the conversation, Isaiah! I will call your Clement reference and raise you a Lutheran cum Orthodox theologian Jaroslav Pelikan! I think his quote here stresses the nature of the tragedy of the Council of Trent in the Protestant mind. I don’t expect you to agree of course but it’s a point worthy of consideration:

“'Every major tenet of the Reformation had considerable support in the catholic tradition. That was eminently true of the central Reformation teaching of justification by faith alone…That the ground of our salvation is the unearned favor of God in Christ, and that all we need do to obtain it is to trust that favor – this was the confession of great catholic saints and teachers…Rome’s reactions [to the Protestant reformers] were the doctrinal decrees of the Council of Trent and the Roman Catechism based upon those decrees. In these decrees, the Council of Trent selected and elevated to official status the notion of justification by faith plus works, which was only one of the doctrines of justification in the medieval theologians and ancient fathers. When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone – a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers – Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted(justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition.” - The Riddle of Roman Catholicism

I’ll raise you the more developed Pelikan’s discussion of Trent in the appropriate chapter of volume 4 of his The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. It’s quite long (most of a chapter), and, I believe, unavailable online. His understanding became much more nuanced as he grew in grace and knowledge. (I’m not sure if it was written after his conversion to Orthodoxy: I am relatively sure it was not.)

Pelikan is one of my favorite historical theologians, and I am likely influenced by him. I thought of writing my thesis challenging his concept of the “Augustinian Synthesis” (presented in vols. 1 and 3).

Gaelic_Bard · Jan 17, 2013

Khalid said:
I’ll raise you the more developed Pelikan’s discussion of Trent in the appropriate chapter of volume 4 of his The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine. It’s quite long (most of a chapter), and, I believe, unavailable online. His understanding became much more nuanced as he grew in grace and knowledge. (I’m not sure if it was written after his conversion to Orthodoxy: I am relatively sure it was not.)

Pelikan is one of my favorite historical theologians, and I am likely influenced by him. I thought of writing my thesis challenging his concept of the “Augustinian Synthesis” (presented in vols. 1 and 3).

I believe those were published about 8 or so years before his conversion.

Khalid · Jan 17, 2013

Jimmy_B said:
Hello Gaelic Bard,

Thank you for your post.

Let the semantic games begin…
.
This is what happens when a non-Catholic attempts to interpret a Catholic book. Verses are taken out of context, Christian history (tradition) is ignored and/or a semantically driven argument is started.

Am I wrong?

Your thoughts?

I actually agree with his statement, and do not find it to be semantically, semiotically, or syntactically wanting: faith, of course, is a grace of God (there is no way to explain why some respond with faith, and others with unbelief, if faith comes from ourselves). We are saved through the grace of God. God uses the grace of faith to save us. When we are regenerated, he does not give us faith alone, but he gives us faith working in charity.

Even an atheist can say with his lips, “Jesus is Lord”, and be lying. If this is all that “faith” is, the Bible is made out to be a lie, because John clearly says: “Whoever confesseth that Jesus is Lord, in him is the Holy Spirit”.

Paul says similar things in Philippians 2:11 and Romans 10:9: “…if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

What is the best indication that a man believes in his heart that God hath raised him from the dead? By his living faith, working through charity: “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)

How do we know that said atheist can confess Jesus with his lips yet have no faith, and not be filled with the Holy Spirit? The very next verse tells us: “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Bookcat · Jan 17, 2013

Isaiah45_9 said:
Thanks for the links!

I noticed one of the links has this:

Does it mean number 14 in a series? If so, do you know if the series are available?

Thanks,

Jose

Isaiah45_9 · Jan 17, 2013

JonNC said:
The issue is one of translation. German is not Greek, hence Luther’s belief that “allein” belonged to portray the sense of the text, as Greek does not translate directly to German. English, OTOH, is not German. In the English, no translation I know of includes the word “alone” in Romans 3:28.

So, it isn’t a simple matter of what the Holy Spirit compelled St. Paul to write.

Jon

I understand the translation challenges Jon, but I humbly believe that the use of the word “alone” might have served a purpose other than a translation “alone”, pardon the pun.

The word “Alone” is not included in Spanish nor in Latin for Romans 3:28. That makes 3 major languages without its use.

While I empathize with the interpretation, I honestly don’t think there was a clear intention for it to be there.

Peace,

Jose

Gaelic_Bard · Jan 17, 2013

Khalid said:
I actually agree with his statement, and do not find it to be semantically, semiotically, or syntactically wanting: faith, of course, is a grace of God (there is no way to explain why some respond with faith, and others with unbelief, if faith comes from ourselves). We are saved through the grace of God. God uses the grace of faith to save us. When we are regenerated, he does not give us faith alone, but he gives us faith working in charity.

Even an atheist can say with his lips, “Jesus is Lord”, and be lying. If this is all that “faith” is, the Bible is made out to be a lie, because John clearly says: “Whoever confesseth that Jesus is Lord, in him is the Holy Spirit”.

Paul says similar things in Philippians 2:11 and Romans 10:9: “…if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

What is the best indication that a man believes in his heart that God hath raised him from the dead? By his living faith, working through charity: “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)

How do we know that said atheist can confess Jesus with his lips yet have no faith, and not be filled with the Holy Spirit? The very next verse tells us: “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Amen, Khalid. In actuality, I wouldn’t even go to James to explicitly prove all this. 1 John is inescapable.

Isaiah45_9 · Jan 17, 2013

Bookcat said:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061025_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061115_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061122_en.html

Series from the Year of St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080702_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080827_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080903_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080910_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20080924_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081001_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081008_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081015_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081022_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081029_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081105_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081112_en.html

Faith and works in these two:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081203_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081210_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090107_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090114_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090128_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090204_en.html

books that contain them:

ignatius.com/Products/SPAUL-H/saint-paul.aspx

ignatius.com/Products/JAEC-H/jesus-the-apostles-and-the-early-church.aspx

You are awesome! Thanks a bunch!

God Bless,

Jose

Jimmy_B · Jan 20, 2013

Bookcat said:
Series from the Year of St. Paul

Faith and works in these two:

books that contain them:

Bookcat, thank you for all the links. I didn’t include them in this post… to save CAF server space. Good links though…

philv · Feb 11, 2013

Jimmy_B said:
"So, faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
(James 2:18)

This is one of the verses that troubled Marin Luther and still troubles all those who hold Protestant, non-Catholic beliefs. Please read James 2:14-26, before posting.

Your Thoughts.

To state simply: Faith without works is dead (James). Paul talks about faith and what comes out of it is love. Without love, God is not in us, because God is love. Love is an action that loves God so much that he shines through us. Love comes out as good works - “What you do to these people, you do it unto me.” - Christ. It’s the fruit that comes out of our hands because our faith is so alive and vibrant. That is why faith without works is dead. One can dispute James all they want, but look to Paul’s writings, and look to Christ’s teachings on love. In my previous protestant life, I tended to notice those against faith and works were not living a good Christian life and were comfortable where they were with just belief in Christ - this is why James says faith without works is dead.

On the interesting side, I’ve seen some against works, but they were doing good works without realizing it. My father isn’t catholic and he fully believes in faith and works. It’s so intricate in the life of a Christian. It’s so obvious with anyone who has Christ the center of their lives. Christ taught us to do works almost in every parable he shared. It’s a no-brainer. It seems too much those arguing against it don’t seem to want to love, and it’s often men. But go out and serve - it will change your life as it did mine recently. Faith and works is Jesus Christ in us.

Matt_Guitar_Man · Feb 11, 2013

We can do nothing ourselves to earn the free gift of grace which is imparted through the Holy Spirit to the beleiver, no amount of good works can earn this gift, it is freely given by God as it says in Mat 10:8 Freely you have recieved, Freely you will give.
However scripture clearly points out that this is just the begining of our journey to be united with christ and we must act (works) upon this freely given gift to be assured of our salvation.

Jimmy_B · Feb 17, 2013

Gaelic_Bard said:
Jimmy, in order for repentance to be a reality for a person, they musg first have been raised to newness of life first. That is, the person must be regenerated or he/she will never ask forgiveness for their sins. Within the context of predestination/election, it means that God purposed a certain moment in time where the person hears the gospel, is born from above by the Spirit working in the gospel, and then repents of their sins.

God purposed a certain moment in time where the person hears the gospel,

**
When did that happen… or when will that happen for me, as Catholic… in your opinion?

Darryl1958 · Feb 17, 2013

The Old Testament often presents ideas with seemingly contradictory points of view as well.
The ultra-nationalistic Book of Ezra, for example, is directly contrasted with the much more trans-national understanding relayed in the book of Jonah.

The understanding of any man of course is limited, and the understanding from God is beyond any limitations. God’s word inspire through the writings at the hands of man.

No book can be read in isolation. The fullness of the message of God requires that we go beyond any idea that God is contradicting himself, and that what he gives with his right hand, he takes away with his left.

Paul, for all that he has to say on the law, still ensured that Timothy was circumsised.
Neither circumcision, nor uncircumcision, neither Jew nor Greek; our freedom is not inherent to what we do or do not do, not to who we are or are not, but is part of our inheritance of being redeemed by Jesus.
Such truths are self-evident, to those who have sprouted from the grounds of Christendom, at least.

Freedom to sin though?
God forbid.
Paul knows that as much.
James too.

"So, faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:18)

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