So, how did the new translation go down at your parish?

[SacredHeart1987]

The new translation at my parish went okay, I guess. The priest made quite a few mistakes and kept apologizing. Also, we had the cards in the pew with the new changes, so the congregation would be able to say the correct responses, but everyone kept saying the old responses instead.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

There were some cute goof-ups going on. The woman next to me was hybridizing some parts (likely on accident), like “And also with your spirit”, or “Lord I am not worthy to receive you as entering under my roof”. During the introductory rites after Father said “The Lord be with you” and we responded “And with your spirit”, a little girl from the back shouted rather loudly “WHAT!?”. At about the third instance of “And with your spirit” the same little girl asked “Why do you people keep saying that!?”

I see that everyone is trying, which is wonderful.

The one thing that made all the mistakes well worth it: I’m no longer the only person who bows during the Incarnation in the Creed.

 

[AndyP2010]

I suspect that, quite the contrary, they’ll simply leave church after Mass saying, “There was something different tonight but I can’t quite put my finger on what it was.”

How many C and E Catholics have the Mass responses memorized to the degree that a regular going Catholic would anyway?

 

[7_Sorrows]

i thought that the Mass i attended most of the people responded correctly. you could hear some giving the old responses. i think our priest had more problems than anyone.
i expect by Christmas we will be more comfortable with the new Mass.

 

[GwenL]

Our parish did great at Sunday Mass.

This morning at Daily Mass, people did fine also.

I am so happy at the return of:

Dewfall! Isn’t dewfall about the best possible ever visual image for the imparting of the grace of God? It just appears–it doesn’t drip, it doesn’t pour, it doesn’t run. It wasn’t there, and all of a sudden, it’s there!

Thrones and dominions!!! What did we do without thrones and dominions???

And, best of all, “Behold the Lamb Of God.”

Sometimes I wonder about coincidences. Today’s daily Mass Gospel was about the Centurion, “I am not worthy that you should come under my roof.” We got a nice pithy homily about the new translation’s fidelity to scripture, and best of all, everybody said this correctly prior to Communion.

 

[Irishgal49]

I know we already have the merged anticipation thread, but no one has started a thread about the post-implementation process yet, so I’m giving it a go.

How did the new translation work out the first time at your parish?

Did people catch on well?

Anyone have a massive stroke like some feared? (kidding obviously)

Any comments good or bad from Father in the homily or otherwise?

Any comments good or bad from the laity after mass?

Have at it.

Had to share this it was SO FUNNY. Mass was very small today. One gentleman and I were saying, “And with your Spirit” really loud and strong with gusto and probably 1/2 were saying “and also with you” but I figured out your really MUST use the cards you can’t wing it–it’s too ingrained in us to say it wrong. If you READ it you’re OK. So after every time of it being said wrong, we went through the rest of the mass and the priest was excellent at reading and he did a great job and didn’t stumble even once.

As mass ended almost everyone messed up “and with your spirit” and when he concluded the mass everyone stood mute and one lady said REALLY loud (while laughing) “We’re afraid to say anything” and everyone burst out laughing really really loud. It totally SAVED THE DAY! The priest held it together but he was smirking and I could tell he was about to laugh. I swear today could have been on a sit com…yet it was still wonderful. We just all shrugged our shoulders and dove in–but these are the daily faithful and they WANT mass everyday so they aren’t going to let stumbling and bumbling stop them.

I prayed every single response, just added my “free me from anxiety” after the doxology on the Lord’s prayer was done and I was good. That “under my roof” bit on my former favorite prayer feels like a cheese grater on my brain but I just say it and move on. So far, so good. I didn’t goof up once today–but I belted out “And also with you” really really loud Sunday morning and my friend sitting next to me laughed so I’m going to have my moments too. It’s all good–we’re doing great.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Since my parish has been using the people’s new responses for several months with the bishop’s permission, the transition went almost flawlessly. No negative comments after Mass, but many noted that the new translation of the Mass is more beautiful and elevated than before.

 

[iloveangels]

I was at a comedy show once and the entertainer at one point during said, “Peace be with you,” and many in the audience automatically replied, “And also with you!” The responses are VERY ingrained…

Years ago, I went to the first showing of Star Wars in our town, and the first time they said, “The Force be with you,” there was the loud reply in the dark theater, “And also with you.” It had set off the response by accident. Immediately there was a lot of laughter and snickering. I’m sure the non-Catholics had no idea what it was all about, but the Catholics sure did. I’ve disliked that response (And also with you.) ever since. Just one more reason I’m glad it’s been changed.

 

[iloveangels]

We have been using the new translation since September (I’m in England) and at the weekday Masses we have got used to it quite nicely. We have printed laminated cards with the responses.

I usually go to the Latin sung Mass on Sundays so the changes don’t affect that. However today I went to the vigil Mass and was struck by how many were giving the old responses, even though we all had missalettes! It’s been well publicised in our parish, with numerous newsletters talking about it, and the priests also talking about it. yet some people just don’t seem to listen or take in anything.

People don’t seem to want to pick up the missals and put some effort into it. I think that’s a Catholic thing.
*

When they get sick of it sounding totally confusing, they’ll learn the responses, just like they did after Vatican II. It’d be a good thing if priests used it as a way to encourage a newfound Catholic identity, but most of them probably won’t. There is some polarization because the former situation went on so long before it was corrected, and most priests, no matter what their own views are, probably just want to get past it and stay out of trouble with their bishops.

I understand that the bishops were given the ultimatum from Rome over this, and they are almost all on-board, at least officially and visibly.*

 

[iloveangels]

Whoa! I wonder what her specific issue is… considering (by older woman) she probably attended the Mass before Vatican II… anyway, I consider (without having been there and maybe not understanding) her reaction to be childish.

Not necessarily. There are quite a few who grew up just after the Council and have strong opinions about politics in the Church. They are aged 45-55. The older ones, over 55, who remember the Latin mass, are somewhat split in opinion, with some being glad about this and some being very upset.

And yes, her reaction was childish, and bad-mannered. She will need to come to terms with these changes because they are here to stay until the next missal, which could be years from now and probably won’t repeat the 1970 debacle.

 

[JReducation]

Years ago, I went to the first showing of Star Wars in our town, and the first time they said, “The Force be with you,” there was the loud reply in the dark theater, “And also with you.” It had set off the response by accident. Immediately there was a lot of laughter and snickering. I’m sure the non-Catholics had no idea what it was all about, but the Catholics sure did. I’ve disliked that response (And also with you.) ever since. Just one more reason I’m glad it’s been changed.

I must have been in your theater that day. I remember saying “And also with you.”

LOL

I understand that the bishops were given the ultimatum from Rome over this, and they are almost all on-board, at least officially and visibly.

That’s not exactly the way it happened, but many people loved this story and spread it around. There are so many people that just love to hate bishops, which always makes me wonder how they expect to get more vocations, if you hate the clergy so much. That’s a question for another thread.

What actually happened was that they were taking too long in agreeing on certain parts and certain rituals. Finally, the CDW gave them a deadline and said, “Either get it done or we’ll take it over and do it ourselves.” The bishops were involved in it, but it was taking them forever, especially in the USA, probably because we have so many.

If I remember the story correctly the American bishops finally gave some of the rituals over to the CDW to do itself, because they were running out of time and they knew they would be unable to finish. Remember, they not only had to re-translate the missal, but also the rituals for the other sacraments and all of the votive masses and special masses such as consecration of virgins, funerals, ordination mass, etc.

It was a big job. When you have hundreds of bishops in one room trying to decide whether to say tomayto or tomahto, it can take forever.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[iloveangels]

I must have been in your theater that day. I remember saying “And also with you.”

LOL

That’s not exactly the way it happened, but many people loved this story and spread it around. There are so many people that just love to hate bishops, which always makes me wonder how they expect to get more vocations, if you hate the clergy so much. That’s a question for another thread.

What actually happened was that they were taking too long in agreeing on certain parts and certain rituals. Finally, the CDW gave them a deadline and said, “Either get it done or we’ll take it over and do it ourselves.” The bishops were involved in it, but it was taking them forever, especially in the USA, probably because we have so many.

If I remember the story correctly the American bishops finally gave some of the rituals over to the CDW to do itself, because they were running out of time and they knew they would be unable to finish. Remember, they not only had to re-translate the missal, but also the rituals for the other sacraments and all of the votive masses and special masses such as consecration of virgins, funerals, ordination mass, etc.

It was a big job. When you have hundreds of bishops in one room trying to decide whether to say tomayto or tomahto, it can take forever.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

Yes, that’s all true. In fact, there was video posted online from the USCCB meeting where the final approval was given, and it was pretty funny, actually. The first funny USCCB meeting I’ve ever seen. Some of the sections ended up being translated totally by the CDW because we ran out of time, basically.

Anyway, after the approval by the USCCB, and after the Recognitio in 2010, there were more changes made by ICEL and VOX CLARA before printing to bring this into line because we still did not have it correct enough to use. Americans dragged their feet every single step of the way on this one.

And to make a long story short, the scuttlebutt among insiders is that the near uniformity of the bishops on this is due to strong words from Rome as a result. They won’t put up with it anymore, having seen our rebellious nonsense up close and personal. In defense of the bishops, many of them have delegated people to do run the liturgy offices of their dioceses and these people are supposed to be faithful and know what they are doing. Well, some of them are not and do not. And they were running the liturgical ship in many dioceses. Bishops are very busy-they have a lot of responsibility-and it got away from some of them. But now the priority is higher. Much higher.

This has gotten serious, as the Church has finally apparently perceived that the way we have been operating has hurt evangelism, ad intra as well as ad extra. In other words, people weren’t learning their faith, and we weren’t doing enough to look like Catholics in the public sphere either, since many people were confused about exactly what the point of Catholicism is and what it is to act like a Catholic. [See the text of the pope’s address at the latest Ad Limina meetings in Rome. Text can be found at http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/11/bene...region-i-ii-iii-during-their-ad-limina-visit/ ]

[This whole situation goes back years. The original ICEL was disbanded in 1997 by an order of the CDW under a different Cardinal’s orders. It was reconstituted shortly thereafter with all new members and a new mandate. Then came Liturgiam Authenticam to say exactly how texts should be translated (with greater fidelity to the Latin words, rather than loose paraphrases of ideas). Then a new Latin Missal in 2002-3 by PJPII. Then finally, the new English translations which took nearly 10 years to produce. Along the way, Vox Clara was formed to oversee the process and insure that it was done, and done correctly. Vox Clara ended up playing a major role, and performed admirably and the final text is the result we see today. Most people have only been paying attention to the last year of this, but it’s gone on for much longer and there’s been a lot more to it.]

PS: I like your Christmas tree!

 

[JReducation]

Yes, that’s all true. In fact, there was video posted online from the USCCB meeting where the final approval was given, and it was pretty funny, actually. The first funny USCCB meeting I’ve ever seen. Some of the sections ended up being translated totally by the CDW because we ran out of time, basically.

Anyway, after the approval by the USCCB, and after the Recognitio in 2010, there were more changes made by ICEL and VOX CLARA before printing to bring this into line because we still did not have it correct enough to use. Americans dragged their feet every single step of the way on this one.

And to make a long story short, the scuttlebutt among insiders is that the near uniformity of the bishops on this is due to strong words from Rome as a result. They won’t put up with it anymore, having seen our rebellious nonsense up close and personal. In defense of the bishops, many of them have delegated people to do run the liturgy offices of their dioceses and these people are supposed to be faithful and know what they are doing. Well, some of them are not and do not. And they were running the liturgical ship in many dioceses. Bishops are very busy-they have a lot of responsibility-and it got away from some of them. But now the priority is higher. Much higher.

This has gotten serious, as the Church has finally apparently perceived that the way we have been operating has hurt evangelism, ad intra as well as ad extra. In other words, people weren’t learning their faith, and we weren’t doing enough to look like Catholics in the public sphere either, since many people were confused about exactly what the point of Catholicism is and what it is to act like a Catholic.

[This whole situation goes back years. The original ICEL was disbanded in 1997 by an order of the CDW under a different Cardinal’s orders. It was reconstituted shortly thereafter with all new members and a new mandate. Then came Liturgiam Authenticam to say exactly how texts should be translated (with greater fidelity to the Latin words, rather than loose paraphrases of ideas). Then a new Latin Missal in 2002-3 by PJPII. Then finally, the new English translations which took nearly 10 years to produce. Along the way, Vox Clara was formed to oversee the process and insure that it was done, and done correctly. Vox Clara ended up playing a major role, and performed admirably and the final text is the result we see today. Most people have only been paying attention to the last year of this, but it’s gone on for much longer and there’s been a lot more to it.]

You’re right. Contrary to what people think, this was a major project. Not only did the bishops have to do their part, CDW its part, ICEL its part and Vox Clara it’s part, then there were the different liturgical commissions that represent the major religious orders of men.

The average laymen often forgets that liturgy is usually driven by religious orders. For example, if the Benedictines say that they will not use a certain missal or breviary, everything comes to a grinding stop. The major religious orders of men are like big lobbies in the Vatican. Their major superiors have the same power as bishops, without being bishops. Some are not priests. But they are major superiors. These orders often have their own liturgical commissions.

When ICEL and Vox Clara says, “Here it is” and the Franciscan Liturgical Commission says, “Sorry, but we’re not allowing our friar priests to say that,” then you begin the next phase of this. That is to find a way of amalgamating the changes in the Roman Missal while protecting the the customs and spirituality of each of the major religious orders of men. Obviously, if the religious order has its own rite, as do the Dominicans, Carthusians and Carmelites, this is not a problem, because they don’t use the Roman Missal.

The orders who have a hybrid missal, as I call it, have to be factored into the equation. A hybrid missal would be the Roman-Franciscan Missal or the Roman-Benedictine Missal, etc.

We should all be grateful to these people who put so much work into this. Even when the mass was all in Latin, this cooperation was still necessary. Rome didn’t just hand everyone a missal and that was it. There were five or more versions of the Tridentine mass, depending on whether you were secular or religious. Many religious would not celebrate the Tridentine mass the way that Pius V handed it out. There had to be missals for them too.

The more the Church spreads over the globe, the more challenging this kind of work becomes and the more grateful we should be to the people who put in the effort and who have the patience to do it all.

Fraternally

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[iloveangels]

BTW, did you know that ICEL was given several lengthy shots at translating the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which they totally messed up? There is a book named “Catechisms and Controversies” by Msgr Michael Wrenn, that contains the details of this whole surprising story. Anyway, the CCC was published in the US under ICEL’s name, but the real translator was a very holy priest in New Zealand working confidentially with the Holy See and Cardinal Shonborn, believe it or not. If you recall, the Spanish version came out about a year before ours and we heard nothing for the longest time before it was published. This is why and that’s the real backstory on that.

This business with the CCC (plus a few other bad translations in that same time period, including a defective ordination ritual) are what really began the Holy See’s closer supervision of ICEL, and ultimately what set off the re-constitution of ICEL. There are still online a flurry of letters between ICEL and Cdl Jorge Medina Estevez, then head of the CDW, about all these matters.
Here’s an article with more details: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2855
And another one: adoremus.org/98-01_hitchcock.htm

Here is the original letter from the CDW to ICEL: adoremus.org/98-01_cdwletter.htm

 

[iloveangels]

You’re right. Contrary to what people think, this was a major project. Not only did the bishops have to do their part, CDW its part, ICEL its part and Vox Clara it’s part, then there were the different liturgical commissions that represent the major religious orders of men.

The average laymen often forgets that liturgy is usually driven by religious orders. For example, if the Benedictines say that they will not use a certain missal or breviary, everything comes to a grinding stop. The major religious orders of men are like big lobbies in the Vatican. Their major superiors have the same power as bishops, without being bishops. Some are not priests. But they are major superiors. These orders often have their own liturgical commissions.

When ICEL and Vox Clara says, “Here it is” and the Franciscan Liturgical Commission says, “Sorry, but we’re not allowing our friar priests to say that,” then you begin the next phase of this. That is to find a way of amalgamating the changes in the Roman Missal while protecting the the customs and spirituality of each of the major religious orders of men. Obviously, if the religious order has its own rite, as do the Dominicans, Carthusians and Carmelites, this is not a problem, because they don’t use the Roman Missal.

The orders who have a hybrid missal, as I call it, have to be factored into the equation. A hybrid missal would be the Roman-Franciscan Missal or the Roman-Benedictine Missal, etc.

We should all be grateful to these people who put so much work into this. Even when the mass was all in Latin, this cooperation was still necessary. Rome didn’t just hand everyone a missal and that was it. There were five or more versions of the Tridentine mass, depending on whether you were secular or religious. Many religious would not celebrate the Tridentine mass the way that Pius V handed it out. There had to be missals for them too.

The more the Church spreads over the globe, the more challenging this kind of work becomes and the more grateful we should be to the people who put in the effort and who have the patience to do it all.

Fraternally

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

I’m not talking about the editions of the Missal that go to the various religious orders. I’m talking about the Roman Missal and the Catechism of the Catholic Church in general, from which those documents come.

Religious orders, BTW, are not the force they once were, simply because the size of them is smaller. And their mandate is no longer as clear to the Church in general. There are many dioceses in the US and in other places, that have no religious order presence or a very weak one now. I can’t tell you the last time I saw a friar or a religious order priest anywhere in this diocese–in habit or in regular clerical clothing, for that matter. It’s been a very long time-years.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

I didn’t even realize there was a previous-er translation

But that would explain why it sounded like everyone was saying their own version… All in all, it went by a lot smoother than I had expected. It should only get better from here.

Yes, my favourite “official” translation so far has been the 1965 translation, which was used between the years 1964 and 1969. The translation just replaced dated to between 1969 and 1973.

The current translation is in many ways a revival of the 1965 translation. It is as if, all this time later, the Church is realizing it made a mistake to replace it. Rather amazing, interesting and for me inspiring, as I am a traditionalist, who enjoys english as much as latin.

The best translation however is that of the knott missal the most popular editions being from between 1945 and 1958, which is used by several anglican parishes being received into the Catholic Church.

It is the intention of the Congregation of Divine Worship or whoever oversees the task, that it will be adopted as an official liturgy for use within the Anglican Ordinariates (and this would mean also potentially a regular catholic church may optionally use it eventually) sometime in either 2012 or 2013.

But my understanding is that many parishes that are already using the Knott Missal will be allowed to continue using it immediately, as it is viewed as a very valid orthodox translation.

Both the 1965 translation and the Anglican Knott missal are mostly literal translations of the Tridentine pre-Vat II Latin Mass. This means they continue to have a 1 year cycle instead of 3 year cycle, retain septuagesima, a slighty different calendar and have more strict rubrics which require far more bows and protestations.

About 40 Eastern Orthodox churches in the USA which were received from the Anglican and other protestant converts also are allowed to use the Knott Missal under it’s “Western rite”. So the precedent for more traditional english liturgy is quite strong.

It is interesting exciting times to be living in.

I think it’s fair to expect that within the next 10 years the majority of bishops will either require or “strongly encourage” the priests to face “Ad orientem” again, less toward the people.

The future is more and more looking like the past, but whether it can happen without any conflict or serious resistance is uncertain.

Most likely whatever results this “New Vatican commission” being set up within the last few days to crack down on improper church architecture and improper liturgical music has will indicate what the future will hold.

Antiphon on benedictus for tuesday 1st week of Advent:

There shall come forth a branch from the root of Jesse,
and all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord,
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

 

[iloveangels]

We actually didn’t even use it (except for a few parts). The cantor couldn’t make it, and the priest said (since he didn’t know the music to the sung parts) , we would just use the old parts. Why we just couldn’t recite the new parts, I can’t say. We had terrible preparation for all of this. The most that was done was the handing out of pew cards for the past few weeks, which we didn’t use. I guess we were just supposed to get used to holding them? Also, the priest has had absolutely nothing good to say about the new translation, in fact he has continually made fun of it from the start.

It is very disheartening.

You might need to find a new parish.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not talking about the editions of the Missal that go to the various religious orders. I’m talking about the Roman Missal and the Catechism of the Catholic Church in general, from which those documents come.

Religious orders, BTW, are not the force they once were, simply because the size of them is smaller. And their mandate is no longer as clear to the Church in general. There are many dioceses in the US and in other places, that have no religious order presence or a very weak one now. I can’t tell you the last time I saw a friar or a religious order priest anywhere in this diocese–in habit or in regular clerical clothing, for that matter. It’s been a very long time-years.

The problem is that the religious orders that use the hybrid missals have to approve the changes in the Roman missal that they are going to incorporate in their missal. Everything has to change at the same time.

For example, the religious order missals had to be re-edited and ready to go this past Sunday. Because on those days when they are not celebrating a proper of their order, they follow whatever is prescribed in the Roman Missal for that day. They don’t have two missals. They have one, which is a hybrid. It all has to come out at the same time.

Don’t be fooled by the fact that you may not see many religious in your diocese. The major religious orders of men have a lot of influence in the Vatican for many reasons. Among them is sheer numbers.

The still have the right of exemption, which means that they can refuse to use any missal that the bishops put before them. The only person who can make them use it is the pope himself. That’s part of being of Pontifical Right. It means that they answer only to the Pontiff.

They are usually the scholars behind most of this type of work. I mentioned the Benedictines in particular, because the CDW still consults the Benedictines in matters of liturgy. They are the masters of liturgy, because it’s their charism and their special contribution to Church life. If they say that something is bad, the CDW takes a second look.

A difficult part of this work is harmonizing the Roman Missal and the missals of the orders. You can’t have the Church using the Third Edition of the Roman Missal and the orders using an older version of their own missal, because it throws off the balance of things.

For example, in our own missal, it said, “And also with you.” With the revision of the Roman Missal, we had to revise our missal to say, “And with your spirit.”. Granted, that’s a small thing But when you start to play with graduals and collects that affect the holy days of the religious missals, then it’s not a small thing.

People have to go to the table and get everything to work well together. Otherwise, the faithful are going to be thrown for a loop. Imagine going to the local diocesan parish where they pray the revised version of the Creed and down the street to the Franciscan parish where they pray the previous version of the creed, because they’re working out of two editions of the missal. That would drive everyone crazy, not to mention the local bishop.

Of course, the local bishop cannot demand that the religious drop their missal. It means that the missal of the religious has to be revised, while preserving its identity. They have to work very closely with the CDW to do this. All of these wheels are turning at the same time. It’s a monster project.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[Sirach2]

What were they thinking when they published a book that size without tabs?

JR, my pastor is concerned about the very young altar servers - not only the weight of carrying it to Father, but their little arms holding it up while he reads. Wonder how this is going to turn out, and if he needs to use adults instead?

 

[DCNBILL]

JR, my pastor is concerned about the very young altar servers - not only the weight of carrying it to Father, but their little arms holding it up while he reads. Wonder how this is going to turn out, and if he needs to use adults instead?

We have placed a book stand in front of the presiders chair to handle this issue.