So how is the Blessed Virgin Mary not a goddess?

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Since we have become (or are called to be) “partakers of the divine nature”, we do through our transformation in Christ become divine by participation in God’s Divinity. God alone is Divine by Nature, we become divine by grace. Mary, of course, has that divinity of grace in spades. :angel1:
 
Mary is not divine and neither are the saints in heaven. When Peter spoke of us partaking of the divine nature, he was referring to his Holy Spirit or the spirit OF God, when we are baptized. God is not reproducing “little gods” in heaven. Someone has misguided you with shades of Mormonism.
 
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piety101:
Mary is not divine and neither are the saints in heaven. When Peter spoke of us partaking of the divine nature, he was referring to his Holy Spirit or the spirit OF God, when we are baptized. God is not reproducing “little gods” in heaven. Someone has misguided you with shades of Mormonism.
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😃 St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church, would be amused to see himself accused of crypto-Mormonism:

“. . .the Bridegroom [Christ] communicates Himself to the soul by means of the adornment of these virtues, He feeds on the soul, transforming her into Himself, now that she is prepared and seasoned with the flowers of virtues, gifts, and perfections, the seasonings with which, and among which, He feeds on her. By means of the Holy Spirit, who prepares the dwelling, these virtues delight the Son of God so that through them He may feed more on the love of the soul. This is the characteristic of the Bridegroom: to unite Himself with the soul amid the fragrance of these flowers.” The Spiritual Canticle, Stanza 17, #10.

"Turn Your face toward the mountains. . .The face of God is the divinity, and the mountains are the soul’s faculties (memory, intellect, and will). This verse is like saying: Let Your divinity shine on my intellect by giving it divine knowledge, and on my will by imparting to it divine love, and on my memory with the divine possession of glory.

“The soul asks in this line for everything she possibly can ask of Him. She is no longer satisfied with the knowledge and communication of the “back” of God - which was His communication to Moses [Ex. 33:23] - and which is knowledge of Him in His effects and works; she can only be satisfied with God’s face, which is an essential communication of the divinity of the soul. This communication is not brought about through any means, but through a certain contact of the soul with the divinity. This contact is something foreign to everything sensory and accidental, since it is a touch of naked substances - of the soul and the divinity.” Ibid. Stanza 19, #4

“. . .Beloved, first turn to the interior of my soul, and be enamored of the company - the riches - You have placed there, so that loving the soul through them You may dwell and hide in her. For, indeed, even though they are Yours, since You gave them to her, they also belong to her.” Ibid. Stanza 19, #6.

See also the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1726 The Beatitudes teach us the final end to which God calls us: the Kingdom, the vision of God, participation in the divine nature, eternal life, filiation, rest in God.

1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature: for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.
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1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.
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I don’t suppose, “because Christ’s Church says she is not a goddess” would cut it would it? Probably not for non-Catholics, but then again a conversation is pretty much doomed anyway if one will not allow the opponent his own understanding.

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
I don’t suppose, “because Christ’s Church says she is not a goddess” would cut it would it? Probably not for non-Catholics, but then again a conversation is pretty much doomed anyway if one will not allow the opponent his own understanding.
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The question is more, how does the Blessed Virgin differ conceptually from those which we call “goddesses” in other religions? She doesn’t.

Suppose that a Chinese sect held that the Jade Emperor supreme deity became incarnate as a man and that afterwards his earthly mother was elevated to join him in heaven and crowned the Queen Mother of Heaven and now people pray to her and keep statues of her in their gardens, would we Christian westerners not refer to this being as a goddess? Well, what would distinguish such a female deity from the Blessed Virgin such that the former falls in the class “goddess” and the Blessed Virgin does not?
 
Racer X:
Suppose that a Chinese sect held that the Jade Emperor supreme deity became incarnate as a man and that afterwards his earthly mother was elevated to join him in heaven and crowned the Queen Mother of Heaven and now people pray to her and keep statues of her in their gardens, would we Christian westerners not refer to this being as a goddess?
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Possibly. Not necessarily.

Scott
 
Racer X-

Good job! :clapping: You got everyone to stop and think about the flexibility of words and how we have to be specific in explaining to our non-Catholic brothers and sisters the Blessed Virgin’s place in our religion. I have myself have been lazy in trying to explain our faith, by using generalizations and not specifics. :tsktsk:

I grew up watching Speed Racer cartoons. I was living in Hawaii at the time and with the large Japanese population, Japanese cartoons were very popular. :cool:

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Hercules being elevated to “god” status in the Ancient Greek/Roman mythology. :o
 
Wait! I think I figured it out–the basis of refraining from use of the word god and goddess to describe angels and saints.

There is one important difference between a rival god such as those worshipped by other peoples in the Old Testament and the angels. Rival gods are assumed to be *independent *of the Lord God, free agents having nothing to do with Him. Angels on the other hand are His servants and under His will.

Similarly we use the word today “gods” to describe beings of another religion, *e.g. *Hinduism, since the understanding is that if the beliefs of that religion were true, then Krishna and the rest would be “other gods” in addition to and independent of the Lord. But we refrain from that term for Christian heavenly beings to indicate their utter dependence on One True God.

But in this way there is still nothing wrong for a Hindu to refer to St. Michael, the Blessed Virgin and the heavenly host as gods of the Christian faith, since from their perspective these are heavenly beings of a rival faith that of the same order as their own pantheon.

Thank you all for your helpful comments.
 
Racer X:
Wait! I think I figured it out–the basis of refraining from use of the word god and goddess to describe angels and saints.

There is one important difference between a rival god such as those worshipped by other peoples in the Old Testament and the angels. Rival gods are assumed to be *independent *of the Lord God, free agents having nothing to do with Him. Angels on the other hand are His servants and under His will.

Similarly we use the word today “gods” to describe beings of another religion, *e.g. *Hinduism, since the understanding is that if the beliefs of that religion were true, then Krishna and the rest would be “other gods” in addition to and independent of the Lord. But we refrain from that term for Christian heavenly beings to indicate their utter dependence on One True God.

But in this way there is still nothing wrong for a Hindu to refer to St. Michael, the Blessed Virgin and the heavenly host as gods of the Christian faith, since from their perspective these are heavenly beings of a rival faith that of the same order as their own pantheon.

Thank you all for your helpful comments.
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No. Thank you. You have pointed out a real difficulty that needs to be wrestled with and satisfactorily resolved rather than relying on canned objection rebuttles and going on our merry way.

Scott
 
I did a quick refresher and Hercules was dying a horrible death, Zesus sent Athena to carry him back to Mt Olympus. There Hercules was awarded the status of god. However, since he was half mortal, the mortal part of him was sent to the Underworld.

I know this was a littleoff track, but it bugged me and I had to find the answer.
 
This whole matter is bogus. No one in heaven, be it Mary, the saints are “gods”. They all are created, redeemed children of God by ADOPTION. They have not even received their resurrection bodies yet and so the majority are spirits or souls. Mary, Enoch, Elijah and Jesus being the exception. To be a god one must have the quality of divinity. None but the Father, the Son and the blessed Holy Spirit have this divine quality and always have and will. No doubt Enoch, Elijah and Mary now have immortal bodies, but this does not make them gods at all. Their bodies are just suitable for the heavenly realm. They of themselves cannot create universes and demand worship. Only the triunity of the Godhead has within it’s being to rightfully demand such.
Someday, if we are faithful, we to will receive resurrected bodies as well. But we will not be divine or little gods. Only God will be God and so it will always be. The lie that we sahall be gods or as God, was the lie Satan himself told Eve in the garden of Eden.
 
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piety101:
This whole matter is bogus. No one in heaven, be it Mary, the saints are “gods”.
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From the Catholic Catechism
kofc.org/publications/ci…m=460&ParType=a
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: 78 “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” 79 “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” 80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” 81

(The Catechism is quoting St. Thomas Aquinas here.)
 
Scott Waddell:
No. Thank you. You have pointed out a real difficulty that needs to be wrestled with and satisfactorily resolved rather than relying on canned objection rebuttles and going on our merry way.
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I am Racer X.

Apparently I have been banned for this little exercise in examining our Faith. I am not able to log in as Racer X.

I have not even contradicted a teaching of the Church but simply questioned our understanding of those teachings and the *language *we use in expressing it versus the language we use regarding other religions.

If this is the board admins’ idea of outside the realm of apologetics, then I suppose I expect little on this board other than rehashing a handful of the same “acceptable” questions over and over.

Again, thank you to those who responded with reason and good manners. I expect CATHOLICMAN will probably be banned after this post too.
 
Although semantics may be confusing, it falls on the authority of the Church, the Church says there is only one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-that is enough. The responsibility of understanding the teaching of the Church falls on those who can’t separate semantics from teaching authority, which is what pretty much all arguements against the Church boil down to. Authority.
 
Catholicman
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                   Paragraph 81 does indeed seem to imply that we shall be gods. But the quote is from St Ambrose. Was St Ambrose an apostle? I think not. And from where does he get the authority for making such a polytheistic statement? Not from scripture. When scripture says that we NOW share the divine nature, Peter is referring the the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we received at baptism. Notice Peter speaks in the PRESENT TENSE and not in the future. 

                   I do not for a moment believe that the Catholic church has joined hands with the Mormon church in teaching we all ultimately will become little gods. Although your comment was relevant and strong. Still it must be contrasted to the scripture text itself and whether the OTHER early church fathers believed God was and is reproducing little gods after his kind. I believe the evidence is lacking and heretical in my judgment. :)
 
Piety,

The Catholic Church in quoting St. Ambrose in its Catechism is obviously expressing agreement with what this Saint and Doctor of the Church (like St. John of the Cross whom I quoted previously) had to say about the divinity that we are called to through our union in and with Jesus Christ. It is NOT that the Church is teaching anything like Mormonism, but that it is recognizing the depth (and height) of our transformation in Christ.

A term more often found in Eastern Christianity (both Catholic and Orthodox) is theosis, deification. This word expresses the absolute transformation of oneself through the soul’s participation in God’s Divine Nature. This is not something we of ourselves have, but can only receive by grace initiated in Baptism and grown through fidelity to the sacramental life of the Church. Through theosis we take part in the life of the Most Holy Trinity; we become truly united (not just de jure, but de facto) in the Divine Life which the Divine Persons alone have by their Nature. What is begun in Baptism comes to its fruition in Heaven, so it is very much not only a “now” event, but an eternal one.

St. Ambrose is hardly the only Father to express this truth; see also St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. Basil the Great, and St. Gregory Palamas for starters.

(It was not just a nice sentimentality that St. Paul expresses in Galatians 2:20: “I live, now not I, but Christ lives in me.”)

It would be well for you to familiarize yourself with the depth and fullness of Catholic theology and spirituality so as not to confuse authentic doctrine with heresy. The works of St. John of the Cross in particular would be helpful.
 
Racer X:
From the American Heritage Dictionary online:

goddess

1. A female being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people. 2. often Goddess A female being believed to be the source of life and being and worshiped as the principal deity in various religions. Used with the. 3. An image of a female supernatural being; an idol. 4. Something, such as fame or wealth, that is worshiped or idealized. 5. A woman of great beauty or grace.

Allow me to provide the first reply.

“The difference is that we Catholics don’t worship Mary. We just do a lot of things that if they were done by people of any other religion would be identified as worship (even by us) but when we do it, it is not worship.”
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Webster’s definition of prayer is: N. 1. One who prays; a supplicant
2. The act of praying or asking a favor; earnest request or entreaty; hence a petition or memorial addressed to a court or legislative body.

How does prayer of the Ave Maria or the Hail Mary, in some way make us pagans, when in fact pagans worship many gods. When one prays the Ave Maria, let us first refer to the prayer, “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”, the supplicant, “one praying humbly for something,” is asking Mary to pray for him or her, not worshipping her. I compare this to how Catholics and non-Catholics alike ask members of their church to pray for a family member who may be ill or in crisis.

The Webster’s definition of worship is: N. 1. Extreme of character, dignity worth; worthiness
  1. Honor, respect civil deference.
  2. The act of praying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage adoration or acts of reverence paid to God or being viewed as God.
This is not a serious post…and I question the validity of your claim to the Roman Catholic Church…if you indeed believe what you say. You have posted this nonsense before.
 
All those in the state of grace, including the Most Holy Mother of God, have supernatural power infused in them. The power to love God for his own sake is a supernatural power made possible by supernatural grace. Sanctifying grace – which is a supernatural grace – is something that is not only given but which once given inheres in the person to whom it is given. Some supernatural powers, Mary has (for example due to her resurrected, glorified body), which others do not have or even in a few cases will never have.

That being said, it is just ridiculous to argue that the Virgin is a goddess based on a definition given in some dictionary. Arguments based on this silly nonsense should just be ignored. Those who use the dictionary actually violate their own silly principle of “sola scriptura” since they are now using some dictionary in addition to scripture as their authority. There’s nothing wrong with dictionaries. But they are not meant to give comprehensive definitions as that would make them at least 100 times as long as they already are.

Supernatural just means “above nature.” In reference to humans it means above human nature. Supernatural grace elevates man above his human nature.
 
No, we shall not become “little gods” as Mormonism also teaches. That is heresy, no matter what the extra biblical source.
 
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piety101:
No, we shall not become “little gods” as Mormonism also teaches. That is heresy, no matter what the extra biblical source.
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Please get this straight: Catholicism’s teaching on the soul’s divinization through its union with Christ is neither comparable to Mormon doctrine nor heresy of any sort. :banghead:

Your disagreement stems not from your desire to be orthodox, but from your misunderstanding of orthodox teaching on the soul’s union with God. Instead of making accusations of heresy (against the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I might add!) your time would be better spent studying the authentic teaching of the Church as presented in the Catechism and the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
 
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