So how should we teach modesty?

[Cone]

What I have seen the modesty rhetoric lead to in many woman is not chastity but despair and imbalance. Some of us have been the targets of lust even covered, and it is difficult to deal with this rhetoric when it seems that stepping out our from doors without taking extreme measures leads to sins.

Everyone has an obligation to live a chaste life. That means you must embrace modesty in your dress and demeanor. I do not accept your claim that chastity and modesty lead to despair. Nor is it a defense to immodesty that even some who dress modestly are targets of lust.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

I live in a very young, active neighborhood. A LOT of attractive and very fit 20 and 30-something men go for runs shirtless.

We women definitely notice.

And wear rugby shorts.

Then there are all those men in fine tailored suits, or rolled up sleeves baring their strong forearms, which is apparently the male-equivalent to cleavage.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Everyone has an obligation to live a chaste life. That means you must embrace modesty in your dress and demeanor. I do not accept your claim that chastity and modesty lead to despair. Nor is it a defense to immodesty that even some who dress modestly are targets of lust.

Trying to dress modestly when you have hips and boobs causes me to fall into despair when our priest brings out the “necklines shall not be cut more than two finger breadth below the pit of the throat and skirts and dresses shall cover the knees while sitting” guidelines.

 

[Tigg]

What I have seen the modesty rhetoric lead to in many woman is not chastity but despair and imbalance. Some of us have been the targets of lust even covered, and it is difficult to deal with this rhetoric when it seems that stepping out our from doors without taking extreme measures leads to sins.

Perhaps we could explore the true meaning of modesty.

Which is about our inner attitude leading to outward behavior.

It is communication to others that we wish not to be conspicuous or on display. It is an invisible barrier protecting that which is deeper and more precious and more private.

It isn’t just about dress.

 

[Sarcelle]

Everyone has an obligation to live a chaste life. That means you must embrace modesty in your dress and demeanor. I do not accept your claim that chastity and modesty lead to despair. Nor is it a defense to immodesty that even some who dress modestly are targets of lust.

I am sure I have mentioned this before, but my cousin attends an EF mass and.walks home.after. Sometime she forgets to take off her chapel veil, sometimes whe does not. She is dressed in calf.length dress suitable for the mass. Without fail.she encounters men who will leer or cat call her. Somehow she is made to feel responsible for the men’s behavior. So if she is dressed immodestly and men leer at her she is held responsible, if she dresses modestly, there are men out there who.seem to get off on degrading modestly dressed women and somehow it still is her fault.

I know this because she told me that whenever she complains about being harrassed to others they blame her. This is what is meant by despair. No matter what you do you are still held responsible for the behavior of someone you have no control over.

By no means is this a defense of immodesty. I very much believe in modesty and both men and women have a duty to observe it. What I object to is the notion that women are.solely held responsible for the boorish behavior of some men.

 

[ready]

I’ve been thinking a fair amount about the modesty issues. I believe in modesty as a virtue. Yet a lot of women have complained, somewhat rightly, that modesty standards end up being all about men, or that they end up making women feel ashamed of their bodies (especially those of us who have shapes that never seem to be represented in “modest” modelling).

Here’s some of the things I wish someone had told me as a girl:

As a woman, God made you beautiful. Sex is good and your body is good. Not all women have the same bodies, but you are only responsible for taking care of the body you have. It’s not wrong to want to look attractive.

Our society likes to make a lot of judgements based on what you look like. If you have a body that’s seen as more sexualized, that doesn’t mean you have to try to hide that you have that sort of body. If you have a body that’s not as attractive that’s ok too, you don’t have to try to change your body.

Women deserve respect. A woman shouldn’t be afraid to expect that men in her life will respect her. A man who pressures you into going past your own boundaries, even if you’re not going “all the way”, is not a man who respects you. And a good Christian man will not ask you to have sex with him before you’re married.

Unfortunately some men out there are just pigs. And the pigs are often the loudest ones. Some men will be crude or treat you like an object no matter how you dress or act. These men aren’t your fault, and they don’t necessarily mean you’re doing something wrong. Even if you do dress in a way that’s not appropriate, that doesn’t excuse men who try to harass you or touch you without your permission.

Women should dress modestly like the Blessed Virgin Mary, concealing their body curves and parts. If women dress to show off curves and parts they could be an occassion of sin for men and would be sinning in a grave manner. When men dishonor and show disrespect towards women who dress immodestly these women should not be surprised, for if women dress as sex objects they should not be surprised when they are treated as sex objects. No female should dress immodestly – for the sake of purity, decency, order, and even personal safety. God bless you.

 

[DarkLight]

Women should dress modestly like the Blessed Virgin Mary, concealing their body curves and parts. If women dress to show off curves and parts they could be an occassion of sin for men and would be sinning in a grave manner. When men dishonor and show disrespect towards women who dress immodestly these women should not be surprised, for if women dress as sex objects they should not be surprised when they are treated as sex objects. No female should dress immodestly – for the sake of purity, decency, order, and even personal safety. God bless you.

Many women here experience being treated as sex objects even when we are dressed modestly. This goes especially for women who have certain body types. And there are many other factors that are beyond dress, such as where she lives and works or what the color of her skin is. All these can influence how much an individual woman is treated as an object.

When women find that they get treated as sex objects no matter how covered up they are, yet the message from the church comes in from that if you’d just dress more modestly you won’t be treated that way, that is where despair comes in. For me it was the realization that the only way to not be an “occasion of sin” was to wear painfully tight sports bras all the time. Or more practically, that buying a bra that’s in my actual size, putting on a normal top, and standing up straight, would in many people’s minds count as “showing off”. As I’ve said before, my clothing doesn’t draw attention to my chest so much as my chest draws attention to my chest.

When we teach modesty as something a woman does to control the behavior of men, rather than something she does to honor God and respect herself, that is where despair comes in. She starts to feel that what God made her, female, is an evil thing, and that by her very nature she is a temptation. That is not right.

 

[ialsop]

Many women here experience being treated as sex objects even when we are dressed modestly. This goes especially for women who have certain body types. And there are many other factors that are beyond dress, such as where she lives and works or what the color of her skin is. All these can influence how much an individual woman is treated as an object.

When women find that they get treated as sex objects no matter how covered up they are, yet the message from the church comes in from that if you’d just dress more modestly you won’t be treated that way, that is where despair comes in. For me it was the realization that the only way to not be an “occasion of sin” was to wear painfully tight sports bras all the time. Or more practically, that buying a bra that’s in my actual size, putting on a normal top, and standing up straight, would in many people’s minds count as “showing off”. As I’ve said before, my clothing doesn’t draw attention to my chest so much as my chest draws attention to my chest.

When we teach modesty as something a woman does to control the behavior of men, rather than something she does to honor God and respect herself, that is where despair comes in. She starts to feel that what God made her, female, is an evil thing, and that by her very nature she is a temptation. That is not right.

Here we have an argument. Who should change? Women or men? Well, modestly dressed women have been treated badly by impure men. And I, a man seeking and working towards God and purity, have been aroused and lusted after immodest women…SO…who needs to change? Both sexes. There is no way around it. If women dressed modestly AND men practiced custody of the eyes, all would be great. It is when men only blame women and deny responsibility and likewise when women blame men and deny responsibility that problems are created. Women, be modest! Men, be mature!!!
To all women: As women though, it is your duty to focus more on YOU side of it, modesty.
To all men: As men, it is our responsibility to focus more on OUR side, custody of the eyes and respect.

 

[LightBound]

Women should dress modestly like the Blessed Virgin Mary, concealing their body curves and parts. If women dress to show off curves and parts they could be an occassion of sin for men and would be sinning in a grave manner. When men dishonor and show disrespect towards women who dress immodestly these women should not be surprised, for if women dress as sex objects they should not be surprised when they are treated as sex objects. No female should dress immodestly – for the sake of purity, decency, order, and even personal safety. God bless you.

Men need to dress modestly, too. Perhaps in the robes that were common in the time and place of 1st century Palestine. Women can be tempted by manly muscles and defined physiques that are quite visible and alluring in the clothes and behavior of most men in the Western world. Robes would take care of that. Besides, many claim men have a harder time dealing with lust and visual temptations, because of that, they should be concerned about other men with SSA and not lead them into temptation. By concealing those muscles and parts that could be a temptation for men with SSA, they are performing an act of charity towards their fellow man.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Everyone has an obligation to live a chaste life. That means you must embrace modesty in your dress and demeanor. I do not accept your claim that chastity and modesty lead to despair. Nor is it a defense to immodesty that even some who dress modestly are targets of lust.

Read DarkLight’s post carefully. She didn’t say that modesty and chastity lead to despair but the rhetoric used does. There are many approaches to teaching modesty and chastity that lead to shame instead of modesty. In these situations modesty is the responsibility of women and girls but men and boys are off the hook, to the point that they can commit sexual assault and the chaste/modest woman is blamed. It also leaves the women with body issues as well as sexual issues. While most of the examples of this I’ve seen come from non-Catholic Christian traditions, I see this sneaking into Catholic circles as well.

What I have seen the modesty rhetoric lead to in many woman is not chastity but despair and imbalance. Some of us have been the targets of lust even covered, and it is difficult to deal with this rhetoric when it seems that stepping out our from doors without taking extreme measures leads to sins.

 

[ialsop]

DID you guys not read what I just said about BOTH sexes changing?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)
To all women: As women though, it is your duty to focus more on YOU side of it, modesty.
To all men: As men, it is our responsibility to focus more on OUR side, custody of the eyes and respect.

This suggests that men don’t have to be modest and women don’t have to be mature (or perhaps women are incapable of being mature.)

 

[ialsop]

This suggests that men don’t have to be modest and women don’t have to be mature** (or perhaps women are incapable of being mature.**)

Bold-Sigh, oh dear…why dont you just yell at me now for being an idiot anti-woman bigot patriarch?

And no, obviously that is not what mean. Men need to be modest and women need to be mature. In fact, modesty takes a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher degree of maturity than custody of the eyes.

I am addressing the fact that most ads, models, and porn all emphasize degrading thr female more than the man…

but i totally agree, men NEED NEED NEED to be modest. And plus, that sets a good example to the women in his life.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Bold-Sigh, oh dear…why dont you just yell at me now for being an idiot anti-woman bigot patriarch?

:yawn: Too boring.

And no, obviously that is not what mean. Men need to be modest and women need to be mature.

Why did you specify what you did?

In fact, modesty takes a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher degree of maturity than custody of the eyes.

Do you really think that? There are cultures (always oppressive toward women) in which I don’t think modesty requires any maturity at all, only subservience. And in our own, many families live a certain way so that modesty is second nature and more comfortable to both men and women.

I am addressing the fact that most ads, models, and porn all emphasize degrading thr female more than the man…

Okay, but who is dressing the models, creating the ads and producing the porn? At least half are men, I would think.

but i totally agree, men NEED NEED NEED to be modest. And plus, that sets a good example to the women in his life.

Sorry, but it sets an example for women, but not men? Why the dichotomy?

 

[ialsop]

:yawn: Too boring.

Why did you specify what you did?

**Do you really think that? There are cultures (always oppressive toward women) in which I don’t think modesty requires any maturity at all, only subservience. And in our own, many families live a certain way so that modesty is second nature and more comfortable to both men and women.

Okay, but who is dressing the models, creating the ads and producing the porn? At least half are men, I would think.
**

Sorry, but it sets an example for women, but not men? Why the dichotomy?

Bold: EXACTLY!!! You complain that people who tell you to be modest are trying to make you “subservient” but in reality, it is those who get women to be IMMODEST who are making them subservient. I dont see what the issue is, I dont like male dominated cultures, and so i think modesty is a must. If women are not modest, we have a MALE DOMINATED CULTURE. Dont you think? As you said the people dressing up models and directing porn are men…so why are you saying that the men who tell you to be modest are “oppressive”. I say its easy to see who is being oppressive…

 

[DarkLight]

The truth is that either can be a male-dominated culture. A culture that expects a woman to be always on display and to shape her body so that she is pleasing to men is oppressive and against God’s design. Similarly a culture that demands a woman drape herself in shapeless fabric lest a man be tempted by the mere hint of a female form is oppressive and against God’s design.

What has gotten lost in both cases is the value and dignity of the woman.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Bold: EXACTLY!!! You complain that people who tell you to be modest are trying to make you “subservient” but in reality, it is those who get women to be IMMODEST who are making them subservient. I dont see what the issue is, I dont like male dominated cultures, and so i think modesty is a must. If women are not modest, we have a MALE DOMINATED CULTURE. Dont you think? As you said the people dressing up models and directing porn are men…so why are you saying that the men who tell you to be modest are “oppressive”. I say its easy to see who is being oppressive…

Now you’ve made it seem like men are really invested in women’s modesty, or lack there-of, for the benefit of men.

And about this specifically

:If women are not modest, we have a MALE DOMINATED CULTURE. Dont you think?

Not sure I can answer. The traditional dress code in some cultures are considered immodest by some Catholics. In that culture it’s appropriate but whether the society is matriarchal or patriarchal varies.

FWIW, I’m for modesty, just not certain individual’s or group’s definitiions or approaches to it. I think DarkLight asked a good question but it’s one to which I don’t think there is a simple or easy answer.

 

[ialsop]

Now you’ve made it seem like men are really invested in women’s modesty, or lack there-of, for the benefit of men.

And about this specificallyNot sure I can answer. The traditional dress code in some cultures are considered immodest by some Catholics. In that culture it’s appropriate but whether the society is matriarchal or patriarchal varies.

FWIW, I’m for modesty, just not certain individual’s or group’s definitiions or approaches to it. I think DarkLight asked a good question but it’s one to which I don’t think there is a simple or easy answer.

Ok, well then I think we can com to agreement. And I love what DarkLight said in that last post.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png

The truth is that either can be a male-dominated culture. A culture that expects a woman to be always on display and to shape her body so that she is pleasing to men is oppressive and against God’s design. Similarly a culture that demands a woman drape herself in shapeless fabric lest a man be tempted by the mere hint of a female form is oppressive and against God’s design.

What has gotten lost in both cases is the value and dignity of the woman.

Good pic. I have to say though the one on the left does have a slight advantage. Men in her culture are at least openly honest about what they like. Meanwhile the other has a bigger share of murderous, deluded hypocrites.

Furthermore, I’m probably the only straight guy posting here who agrees that the bicep is the equivalent of cleavage.

Why? Because it makes me feel as inferior as a flat-chested girl looking at a busty Playboy Bunny.

Think you girls are the only ones feeling oppressed about body image? I’m as skinny as Victor from Tim Burton’s Corpse Bride. You’re not alone.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

:banghead: And why oh WHY do people here keep on harping about modesty as merely clothing?! Goodness cannot you lot read some St Thomas Aquinas or even your own Catechism?

CCC 2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

Did anyone even read the post I made earlier?

Bah.