So, i hear...

[spn82756]

Again, i am not sure what is the problem wiht you.

apparently you dont believe what the Church teaches. am i right?

15 But if your brother shall offend against you, go, and rebuke him between you and him alone. If he shall hear you, you shall gain your brother. 16 And if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican.

You are wrong. I do believe what the Church teaches. I said that. Do you? John Paul II would not be in favor of denigrating other denominations. Do you agree with that? It doesn’t matter what someone does. Going to Mass…I worked daytime today.

 

[jericho777]

if that would be necessary. it all depends of the situation and the issue.

the CC although spreaded throughout the world, she is One Church.

where does it say local congregation on Mat 15?

**
15 But if your brother shall offend against you, go, and rebuke him between you and him alone. If he shall hear you, you shall gain your brother. 16 And if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and publican.**

There was no roman church in Mat 15

 

[TEPO]

So when you have a dispute with a brother you go all the way to Rome to have them settle the dispute?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Like i said in another post Jesus had many disciples.
Jesus normally calls the apostles by number “the twelve“. Jesus had many disciples. Apostles can be disciples but disciples aren’t apostles. The multitudes were not His disciples and were outside the kingdom.

John 6:60-71 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.

does this show that protestants congregations resembles the Church of the Bible?

but i answer to that. Jesus always explained His sayings when they did not understand. but here one can see that Jesus reemphasized what He said. He confirmed what He said. AMEN, AMEN…

(John 6:48-72):
When Jesus was teaching in the synagogue He told His listeners that:
“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.” The Jews then, “strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus then, rather than give a figurative meaning to His words, repeated the same in more emphatic terms:
“Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, drink indeed.”
This was a command, and a divine precept. Many of his disciples murmured at this saying, “This saying is hard, and who can hear it?”
Jesus, knowing this, said to them, “Doth this scandalize you?” And, rather than give a figurative meaning still, “many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” Jesus, knowing that they had taken Him literally, was then prepared to allow even the twelve apostles to leave Him; Jesus asked His twelve, “Will you also go away?” It is obvious that Jesus meant his words to be taken literally.

when Jesus said: “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”
how do you make a connection of this with the denial of the Eucharist?

**“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.” **

 

[wisdomseeker]

There was no roman church in Mat 15

well, i dont think the Church had started yet.

i think St Paul writes to the Romans. did you see that one? i think there was a Church in rome just like there was the Church in Thessalonian and … although in different places it was one Church. this was to fulfill what Jesus said: Go and preach to whole world. the Church has to be in the whole world. do you know of any church that was not under the authority of the Apostles at the time and was teaching anything different from what the Apostles tought? you know, a church that deny the Eucharist, Baptism, and so forth.

“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.”

 

[wisdomseeker]

You are wrong. I do believe what the Church teaches. I said that. Do you? John Paul II would not be in favor of denigrating other denominations. Do you agree with that? It doesn’t matter what someone does. Going to Mass…I worked daytime today.

denigrating other denominations? are you saying that the CC is just another denomination among others?

“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Like i said in another post Jesus had many disciples.
Jesus normally calls the apostles by number “the twelve“. Jesus had many disciples. Apostles can be disciples but disciples aren’t apostles. The multitudes were not His disciples and were outside the kingdom.

John 6:60-71 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.

Like I explained to you in the other thread, John never used the term “Apostles”, he always used the term disciples. So, he probably isn’t the best example to use when speaking about Matthew, but then Matthew only used the term ‘Apostles’ once. Good thing you knew who I was speaking about when I said ‘Apsotles’.

When Jesus was teaching about the authority of the Church, He was speaking to those men He appointed over the Church. This was not preaching to the multitudes.

**Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? **

If Christ were speaking to all of us, or the multitude, please explain how everyone can ‘bind and loose on earth’?

 

[jericho777]

does this show that protestants congregations resembles the Church of the Bible?

but i answer to that. Jesus always explained His sayings when they did not understand. but here one can see that Jesus reemphasized what He said. He confirmed what He said. AMEN, AMEN…

(John 6:48-72):
When Jesus was teaching in the synagogue He told His listeners that:
“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.” The Jews then, “strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus then, rather than give a figurative meaning to His words, repeated the same in more emphatic terms:
“Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, drink indeed.”
This was a command, and a divine precept. Many of his disciples murmured at this saying, “This saying is hard, and who can hear it?”
Jesus, knowing this, said to them, “Doth this scandalize you?” And, rather than give a figurative meaning still, “many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” Jesus, knowing that they had taken Him literally, was then prepared to allow even the twelve apostles to leave Him; Jesus asked His twelve, “Will you also go away?” It is obvious that Jesus meant his words to be taken literally.

when Jesus said: “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”
how do you make a connection of this with the denial of the Eucharist?

**“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.” **

I believe Christ is present in our communion but you don’t think He’s there.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe Christ is present in our communion but you don’t think He’s there.

What Church are you affliated with jericho777?

 

[jericho777]

Like I explained to you in the other thread, John never used the term “Apostles”, he always used the term disciples. So, he probably isn’t the best example to use when speaking about Matthew, but then Matthew only used the term ‘Apostles’ once. Good thing you knew who I was speaking about when I said ‘Apsotles’.

When Jesus was teaching about the authority of the Church, He was speaking to those men He appointed over the Church. This was not preaching to the multitudes.

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

If Christ were speaking to all of us, or the multitude, please explain how everyone can ‘bind and loose on earth’?

I have demonstrated through scripture that there were many disciples not just 12. All believers are disciples therefore they have authority. Just because it goes against what you think doesen’t change the fact. Scripture is crystal clear. The multitude were not yet in the kingdom hence they were not disciples.

 

[spn82756]

denigrating other denominations? are you saying that the CC is just another denomination among others?

“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.”

Never said that. That’s what you are insinuating. I just received the Eucharist moments ago. That doesn’t give us the right to denigrate others. If you want to work to bring others to Christ…maybe you should concentrate on non-Christians.

BTW…The Orthodox Churches have had no changes to theology for over a thousand years. Does that mean anything to you?

 

[tweetymom]

I have answered this twice now. I must be unclear. I said there is NO church, IMO, that is the church that Jesus established. At best, they (the individual member) are but a part of the Church. In short, I can’t show you or anyone that protestants resembles the Church of the Bible more (or less) than the CC.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have demonstrated through scripture that there were many disciples not just 12. All believers are disciples therefore they have authority. Just because it goes against what you think doesen’t change the fact. Scripture is crystal clear. The multitude were not yet in the kingdom hence they were not disciples.

The point we were discussing was who the Lord specifically spoke too, at different times. As I posted, and you failed to address, the discussion concerning taking disputes to the Church was spoken only to His ‘disciples’. He repeats His authortative statement of whatsover you bind and loose. Since you ignored the question in a hurry to insinuate something that is not true, I’ll repeat the question.

How do individuals have the authority to ‘bind and loose on earth’?

Another question for you jericho777, who, of apostolic authority, imposed hands upon you to make you a disciple?

 

[SyCarl]

The point we were discussing was who the Lord specifically spoke too, at different times. As I posted, and you failed to address, the discussion concerning taking disputes to the Church was spoken only to His ‘disciples’. He repeats His authortative statement of whatsover you bind and loose. Since you ignored the question in a hurry to insinuate something that is not true, I’ll repeat the question.

How do individuals have the authority to ‘bind and loose on earth’?

Another question for you jericho777, who, of apostolic authority, imposed hands upon you to make you a disciple?

Let’s see what a distinguished doctor of the Church had to say on this.

But why did He set him with these? To soothe the person wronged, and to alarm him. Is this only then the punishment? Nay, but hear also what follows. “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven.” And He did not say to the ruler of the church, “Bind such a man,” but, “If thou bind,” committing the whole matter to the person himself, who is aggrieved, and the bonds abide indissoluble. Therefore he will suffer the utmost ills; but not he who hath brought him to account is to blame, but he who hath not been willing to be persuaded.

John Chrysostom (Homilies on Matthew, Homily 60)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LVII.html

 

[jericho777]

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

If Christ were speaking to all of us, or the multitude, please explain how everyone can ‘bind and loose on earth’?

Like I showed before there were many more than 12 disciples. You said before we have to forgive sins because the Lords prayer is directed to the multitude and that’s us. But the apostles did not have to because they could hold men’s sins. In v 18 Jesus is telling them they can bind and loose. Here in v 21 Peter is commanded to forgive infinitely. That’s a contradiction

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Let’s see what a distinguished doctor of the Church had to say on this.

John Chrysostom (Homilies on Matthew, Homily 60)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LVII.html

**Mat 18:18
Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II
ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-41.htm#P5421_1955513

For to you, O bishops, it is said: “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”[61]

Mat 18:18-20

Ver 18. “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jerome: Because He had said, “If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen, and a publican,” whereupon the brother so contemned might answer, or think within himself, If you despise me, I also will despise you; if you condemn me, you shall be condemned by my sentence. He therefore confers powers upon the Apostles, that they may be assured that when any are condemned after this manner, the sentence of man is ratified by the sentence of God. “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose upon the earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Hilary: To hold out a great and terrible fear, by which all men should be reached in this present life, He pronounces that the judgment of the Apostles should be ratified, so that whosoever they bound on earth, i.e. left entangled in the noose of sin, and whosoever they loosed, i.e. accorded the pardon of God’s mercy to their salvation, that these should be bound and loosed in heaven."**

Mat 18:18 Whatsoever you shall bind, &c. The power of binding and loosing, which in a more eminent manner was promised to St. Peter, is here promised to the other apostles and their successors, bishops and priests. (Witham) — The power of binding and loosing, conferred on St. Peter, excelled that granted to the other apostles, inasmuch as to St. Peter, who was head and pastor of the whole Church, was granted jurisdiction over the other apostles, while these received no power over each other, much less over St. Peter. (Tirinus) — Priests receive a power not only to loose, but also to bind, as St. Ambrose writeth against the Novatians, who allowed the latter, but denied the former power to priests. (Lib. i. de pœnit. chap. ii.) (Bristow)

 

[spn82756]

Like I showed before there were many more than 12 disciples. You said before we have to forgive sins because the Lords prayer is directed to the multitude and that’s us. But the apostles did not have to because they could hold men’s sins. In v 18 Jesus is telling them they can bind and loose. Here in v 21 Peter is commanded to forgive infinitely. That’s a contradiction

To forgive infinitely to those who are truly repentant. Not to those who ask forgiveness with the intent to sin again. As he told the prostitute. Your sins are forgiven…sin no more.

 

[tweetymom]

To forgive infinitely to those who are truly repentant. Not to those who ask forgiveness with the intent to sin again. As he told the prostitute. Your sins are forgiven…sin no more.

I have never met anyone who quit sinning

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Like I showed before there were many more than 12 disciples. You said before we have to forgive sins because the Lords prayer is directed to the multitude and that’s us. But the apostles did not have to because they could hold men’s sins. In v 18 Jesus is telling them they can bind and loose. Here in v 21 Peter is commanded to forgive infinitely. That’s a contradiction

Are you saying the Bible is in contradiction?

Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

**Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. **

See, individually we are to forgive indefinitely, the Church however has a greater authority, or is let him be as a heathen and publican another contradiction?

 

[spn82756]

I have never met anyone who quit sinning

Not to quit sinning…but with the intent to sin the same sin no more. None of us can ever stop sinning. In many cases not even the same sin. But we are expected to try not to sin.