So, i hear...

  • Thread starter Thread starter wisdomseeker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As you are well aware, there are no scriptures about different denominations. There are not supposed to be different doctrines. As I’ve discussed, some of the doctrines you believe I can’t find either in the NT. That’s why my position – none of the present day churches should claim they are the one and only church.
It just seems to say, that if none of the Churches today, are like those Churches then, Christ’s Church didn’t make it??

Just making a point here, but we’ve discussed ‘tradtion’, scriptures even speaks of them and tells us to hold to them. Surely those Churches then would know those traditions specifically. Now, if those traditions are not specifically spelled out point by point, as we know them today, where can we look too to understand those traditions. Christ told His Church He wouldn’t leave us orphans. The only place left to look is the writings of the early Church fathers.

The Church then was young when scriptures were written. Those traditions were widely believed and it wasn’t necessary to explain them point by point, after all the Apostles, authors of scriptures, knew their teachings, traditions, were safe with those they appointed to succeed them. Remember, they all believed Christ would return in their lifetimes. Is this the reason they didn’t begin writing in the beginning?

Scriptures themselves were written between 50AD and as late as 110AD, give or take. Christ died and resurrected around 33AD, again give or take. Writing them seemed to be an after thought to the authors, with the exception of Paul who wrote many letters of correction. Did they come to the realization that Christ might possibly not come in their lifetimes and then decide they better write everything down? Remember John told us, twice, that Christ did many things and the world itself could not contain all the books written, had they been written.

So the early Church father’s writings are not considered scripture. They give insight to how they were practicing Christianity from the beginning, the beginning being around 110AD, not counting the Didache, which may have been written earlier but is unidentifiable as to who wrote it, and then it’s not specific.

Common sense with any new establishment is the older it is, the more details are documented.

It seems alot of Protestants won’t consider the writings of the early Church fathers, using an excuse that their not scriptures, but primarily because upon close inspection, there’s a trend supporting Catholic beliefs. With that said, they can offer no other documentation prior to the 1500s. Christians thoughtout history and into the present day are constantly writing about their faith.

I don’t believe Christ’s Church failed, and I believe there are documents throughout history. I’m reading a book now by Flavius Josephus, a Jewish general from the war with the Romans. If his writings could have survived, surely Church documents survived.

What does one have to lose reading the writings of the early Church fathers? Anyone that knows Christ can tell those writings were written by Christians. There’s the link again.

This is not an attempt to try and convert anyone. I believe you are seeking Him, and if you’re like me, you want to worship Him the way He wants us to worship and not the way that comfortable to us, or fits our lifestyle.
 
It just seems to say, that if none of the Churches today, are like those Churches then, Christ’s Church didn’t make it??

Just making a point here, but we’ve discussed ‘tradtion’, scriptures even speaks of them and tells us to hold to them. Surely those Churches then would know those traditions specifically. Now, if those traditions are not specifically spelled out point by point, as we know them today, where can we look too to understand those traditions. Christ told His Church He wouldn’t leave us orphans. The only place left to look is the writings of the early Church fathers.

The Church then was young when scriptures were written. Those traditions were widely believed and it wasn’t necessary to explain them point by point, after all the Apostles, authors of scriptures, knew their teachings, traditions, were safe with those they appointed to succeed them. Remember, they all believed Christ would return in their lifetimes. Is this the reason they didn’t begin writing in the beginning?

If God could preserve the
dead Sea Scrolls He can preserve what He wills

The Jews all were taught in the Synagogues about God…they weren’t Pagan, and they were all observant Jews except for Luke

People seem to think the Bible just fell from the sky don’t they?

Christ gave us the church…the church gave us the Bible

Scriptures themselves were written between 50AD and as late as 110AD, give or take. Christ died and resurrected around 33AD, again give or take. Writing them seemed to be an after thought to the authors, with the exception of Paul who wrote many letters of correction. Did they come to the realization that Christ might possibly not come in their lifetimes and then decide they better write everything down? Remember John told us, twice, that Christ did many things and the world itself could not contain all the books written, had they been written.

So the early Church father’s writings are not considered scripture. They give insight to how they were practicing Christianity from the beginning, the beginning being around 110AD, not counting the Didache, which may have been written earlier but is unidentifiable as to who wrote it, and then it’s not specific.

Common sense with any new establishment is the older it is, the more details are documented.

It seems alot of Protestants won’t consider the writings of the early Church fathers, using an excuse that their not scriptures, but primarily because upon close inspection, there’s a trend supporting Catholic beliefs. With that said, they can offer no other documentation prior to the 1500s. Christians thoughtout history and into the present day are constantly writing about their faith.

I don’t believe Christ’s Church failed, and I believe there are documents throughout history. I’m reading a book now by Flavius Josephus, a Jewish general from the war with the Romans. If his writings could have survived, surely church documents survived.

What does one have to lose reading the writings of the early Church fathers? Anyone that knows Christ can tell those writings were written by Christians. There’s the link again.

This is not an attempt to try and convert anyone. I believe you are seeking Him, and if you’re like me, you want to worship Him the way He wants us to worship and not the way that comfortable to us, or fits our lifestyle.
 

Are you thinking it means go to Rome to settle a sin issue?​

BTW, it doesn’t say ‘local church’ nor does it say Catholic Church.
no, Dok

what i am saying is that in the Church many serious issues can come up. and if a case of brother sin against the other the issue may be solved in the local parish. but a local CC is not a separate Church. she is still One Church. obviously, if i live in the US, i could not go to the CC in germany or Mexico or wherever. therefore, a Catholic Church must be built wherever the people are. when we enter the CC, we are not entering in the CC of St Mary’s in washington, or new york, we are entering into the One Holy Catholic Church with the pope and the Bishops in commnion with pope. it is a mistery.

**“the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.” **
 
We can even watch on TV if we are shut ins…it is all the same at every parish in the world
 
We can even watch on TV if we are shut ins…it is all the same at every parish in the world
Very good point redrosetea! 👍

Do Protestants realize that the Mass is the same liturgy, in every Catholic Church worldwide, on the same day?

Each Mass has readings from the Old Testament, Pslams, New Testament and the Gospels, and they’re read in every Catholic Church, worldwide, and on the same day.

That’s an excellent way to explain one Church, many locations…
 
They are always the very same readings…the same feast days are celebrated

It is like one great act of worship choreographed in perfect time…so it becomes one huge act of prayer and adoration
 
Are you purposely trying to be contrary or do are you having a difficult time understanding?
No, dok

i dont think he agrees with that the CC is just another denomination.

**“The Catholic Church understands its opponents, her opponents do not understand the Catholic Church.”
Hilaire Belloc, the Great Heresies… **
 
You may believe your church, the CC, is the one and only true church but that settles (establishes) nothing but that you believe it.
no, Dok

it is not because i believe therefore it is. it is, therefore, i believe.
Jesus is not the Son of God because i believe he is. It is because He is that i believe. i believe because He is. we are called to believe the Truth. and not the other way around.

And yes, we will stablish that the CC is the only Church and it is the Church of the Bible. you dont have to believe it. but the Truth doesnt depend on your belief to be True.

i would like for you to continue to quote Scriptures on the Church. if you dont mind.

**“The Catholic Church understands its opponents, her opponents do not understand the Catholic Church.”
Hilaire Belloc, the Great Heresies… **
 
As you are well aware, there are no scriptures about different denominations. There are not supposed to be different doctrines. As I’ve discussed, some of the doctrines you believe I can’t find either in the NT. That’s why my position – none of the present day churches should claim they are the one and only church.
Dok,

it must be a True Church, otherwise how could anyone know the Truth?

Jesus said. the Spirit of Truth will come and teach you(the Apostles) all Truth and I will be with until the ends of time. if the CC is wrong, then protestants are the one that have the the Truth, protestants congregations is the Church of the Bible. there is no such a thing is a little Truth here and a little Truth there. together we make up the whole Truth. there is no such thing, Dok. is Jesus divided in to many parts?

Dok, please dont tell me that Jesus does not fullfill His Promises.

** “A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member.”
Saint Augustine… **
 
******Protestants accused the CC of not being the same as the Church of the Bible.

So, protestants can you show us how your congregations resemble the Church of the Bible?

everyone of board! with love and charity, let’s reason.**

**St. Clement of Rome

[47, 6] Shameful, beloved, extremely shameful, and unworthy of your training in Christ, is the report that on account of one or two persons the well established and ancient Church of the Corinthians is in revolt against the presbyters. And this report has come not only to us, but even to those professing other faiths than ours, so that by your folly you heap blasphemies on the name of the Lord, and create a danger for yourselves.**
In playing devil’s advocate for a minute, with love and charity:

Giving the social-cultural and historical changes in the world it is a safe bet that no church resembles the early Christians 2000 years ago with 100% accuracy. You must specify which elements you believe remains unchanged and why. Which elements make your church resemble the early church of the bible? Otherwise, everyone is wrong, strictly speaking.
 
In playing devil’s advocate for a minute, with love and charity:

Giving the social-cultural and historical changes in the world it is a safe bet that no church resembles the early Christians 2000 years ago with 100% accuracy. You must specify which elements you believe remains unchanged and why. Which elements make your church resemble the early church of the bible? Otherwise, everyone is wrong, strictly speaking.
it all depends what you mean by resemblance here.

what elements did the early Church had that CC doesnt? according to you.

** “A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member.”
Saint Augustine… **
 
it all depends what you mean by resemblance here.

what elements did the early Church had that CC doesnt? according to you.

** “A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member.”
Saint Augustine… **
I just lost a long reply. So I’ll address this one.

Do you think the early Church had Mass or Divine Liturgy as we have today? The early Church did certainly believe in the Real Presence. That much we have. Did the early Church have a codified Canon? No. Did the early Church meet in the settings that Orthodox and Catholics ( as well as Anglicans ) do today. I don’t think so. I don’t think the early Church of the 1st…2nd or 3rd centuries followed many of the practices that are followed today. They certainly didn’t have the Creeds. They quite clearly had some different beliefs that were debated through the centuries.

I don’t think any Church resembles the first Churches. As a Catholic I feel with confidence that we and the Orthodox may profess most of the same beliefs…but many of our beliefs have been developed over time.

Christmas wasn’t even celebrated as a solemn feast in the early Church. There have been so many changes.

So Catholics…how does our Church resemble the early Church. Instead of saying what’s different about others…perhaps we should point out what is the same in the Catholic Church today.
 
it all depends what you mean by resemblance here.
True. 100% carbon copy of the early church, for example: language, clothing, culture, society, etc…
what elements did the early Church had that CC doesnt? according to you.
As a Catholic I’m simply playing devil’s advocate…

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Right off the top of my head I would say, “Deaconesses, clothing, language.”

Would you say the post-Vatican II Holy Mass is 100% word for word what they used 2000 years ago?

When I say 100% I mean 100% 😃
 
I just lost a long reply. So I’ll address this one.

Do you think the early Church had Mass or Divine Liturgy as we have today? The early Church did certainly believe in the Real Presence. That much we have. Did the early Church have a codified Canon? No. Did the early Church meet in the settings that Orthodox and Catholics ( as well as Anglicans ) do today. I don’t think so. I don’t think the early Church of the 1st…2nd or 3rd centuries followed many of the practices that are followed today. They certainly didn’t have the Creeds. They quite clearly had some different beliefs that were debated through the centuries.

I don’t think any Church resembles the first Churches. As a Catholic I feel with confidence that we and the Orthodox may profess most of the same beliefs…but many of our beliefs have been developed over time.

Christmas wasn’t even celebrated as a solemn feast in the early Church. There have been so many changes.

So Catholics…how does our Church resemble the early Church. Instead of saying what’s different about others…perhaps we should point out what is the same in the Catholic Church today.
👍
 
I just lost a long reply. So I’ll address this one.

Do you think the early Church had Mass or Divine Liturgy as we have today? The early Church did certainly believe in the Real Presence. That much we have. Did the early Church have a codified Canon? No. Did the early Church meet in the settings that Orthodox and Catholics ( as well as Anglicans ) do today. I don’t think so. I don’t think the early Church of the 1st…2nd or 3rd centuries followed many of the practices that are followed today. They certainly didn’t have the Creeds. They quite clearly had some different beliefs that were debated through the centuries.

I don’t think any Church resembles the first Churches. As a Catholic I feel with confidence that we and the Orthodox may profess most of the same beliefs…but many of our beliefs have been developed over time.

Christmas wasn’t even celebrated as a solemn feast in the early Church. There have been so many changes.

So Catholics…how does our Church resemble the early Church. Instead of saying what’s different about others…perhaps we should point out what is the same in the Catholic Church today.
We have documents from 60 A.D. that explain the Mass in fairly great detail. The doctrines of the Church have not changed. Other aspects of the “Church” such as disciplines (celibacy), or certain feast days or Holy days certainly have evolved but the deposit of faith given to it by Christ has been closely guarded throughout the centuries and that is what is important.
 
We have documents from 60 A.D. that explain the Mass in fairly great detail. The doctrines of the Church have not changed. Other aspects of the “Church” such as disciplines (celibacy), or certain feast days or Holy days certainly have evolved but the deposit of faith given to it by Christ has been closely guarded throughout the centuries and that is what is important.
Purgatory? The Immaculate Conception? The Assumption. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and the Universe?
 
Might I add Papal infalibility on dogma?

And how often the Mass has changed?
 
Originally Posted by spn82756
So you’re saying that you have the ability to forgive sins? I don’t think so.
Not the ability but the responsibility if someone sins against me.

Matthew 6::
9 ¶ "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 
Not the ability but the responsibility if someone sins against me.

Matthew 6::
9 ¶ "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Absolutely!!! No disagreement here my friend! 🙂
 
Purgatory? The Immaculate Conception? The Assumption. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and the Universe?
Growing in understanding does not mean a “change” in the strict sense of the word. Keep in mind that the Church many times “defines” things that it has always believed but that may have been challenged and therefore require a definitive statement at some point in history.

The doctrines concerning Mary actually came out of an infallible teaching. The truth of those doctrines may have been held in the Church’s Tradition for many centuries; now explained and proclaimed as doctrine, something we must believe as Catholics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top