So, i hear...

[spn82756]

The concept of purgatory was not at all foreign to the early church…they were Jews they understood praying for the dead…St Paul says he was a Pharisee and they prayed for their dead

from Fisheaters

Daniel 12:2, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, 2 Timothy 1:16-18, Hebrews 12:14, Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Peter 4:6 and Revelation 21:10, 27 all speak of Purgatory in their telling of the need for purification, prayers for the dead, Christ’s preaching to the dead, or how nothing unclean will see God.

Tertullian comes right out and says in The Crown 3:3, dated A.D. 211, “We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries”. Cyprian of Carthage writes in A.D. 253:

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.

From St. John Chrysostom in his Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5, A.D. 392:

Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

to St. Augustine’s A.D. 419. City of God:

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment"

the Church Fathers speak of purgation.

Archaeology also indicates the antiquity of the Christian belief in Purgatory/the Final Theosis: the tombs of the ancient Christians were inscribed with words of petition for peace and for rest, and at the anniversaries of deaths, the faithful gathered at the graves of the departed to make intercession for those who’d gone before.

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this “place” of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the “Chevra kaddisha – gmilat khessed shel emet,” the “Holy Society” or “Burial Society” of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one’s purification.

Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory:

Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."

Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
  (1) one that is completely righteous,
  (2) one that is completely wicked,
  (3) and one that is in between."

The completely righteous will be recorded and sealed at once for eternal life. The completely wicked will be recorded and doomed at once to Gehinnom, as it says: "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise up, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal rejection" [Daniel 12:2]. Those in between will go down to Gehinnom and cry out and rise up, as it says: "And I will bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process, and the same theme is reflected in Wisdom 3:1-7 and II Maccabees 12:43-45, both contained in the Deuterocanonical books that Protestants refer to as “The Apocrypha.”

Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always proclaimed the reality of the final purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.

Well…if we accept purgatory on what the Jews say…then we have to reject Christ as they do.

BTW…The Orthodox never had purgatory. And for the first 1000 years we ALL agreed on the same thing. Not my opinion. FACT

 

[humblelurker]

That is a totally misinformed statement by the person you are quoting.

No misinformation my friend, for I’m asking questions to get to an obvious answer.

 

[spn82756]

No misinformation my friend, for I’m asking questions to get to an obvious answer.

You’re not misinformed…it was the person you were challenging that was misinformed

 

[SteveVH]

First of all…I believe the teachings. Now you demonstrate their existence in the early Church. Especially purgatory. I’ll be waiting.

“From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified they may attain the beatific vision of God” (CCC, par. 1032).

If you want to question the Catechism you are free to do so. I find it a very accurate source. I haven’t had time to research the ECF’s on this particular subject but am interested in doing just that. There are also scriptural references to purgatory (maybe not by name) if you would like.

 

[redrosetea]

Well…if we accept purgatory on what the Jews say…then we have to reject Christ as they do.

BTW…The Orthodox never had purgatory. And for the first 1000 years we ALL agreed on the same thing. Not my opinion. FACT

I would like to see your proof…I have shown you mine…I have given you 2 documents telling the early church prayed for the dead…you have given me hot air

Well we accept the !0 commandments don’t we? You are splitting hairs… Christ lived and died as an observant Jew

I will waste no more time on you

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It seems that way to you because you see the Church as an organization; I see it as an organism of all believers, some more obedient than others. I’d have to admit I need to be much more obedient.

How do you know for sure that some of the traditions you hold are not the positive traditions of the verses you have cite but are the negative traditions of the verses I’ve cited?

I like to think it’s common sense. What should we do, throw out all traditions?

That’s why I look to the 27 books of the NT.

Yes, but as we’re discussing, they don’t list everything point by point.

You don’t think the teaching of the CC about Mary is important enough for the original apostles to have made comment about it? You don’t think the host actually being the real presence of Jesus is important enough for the original apostles to spell it out for us? If the church Jesus set up was called the Catholic Church, don’t you think the original apostles would have spelled it out for us?

Do you think anyone of those times said some of the things we see Protestants say about Mary today? Also, if something was widely believed, or widely known, it was widely accepted and didn’t require documentation then. Would it?

I think Paul spells out the real presence clearly in 1 Corinthians 11. People who argue against it, pick verse to cast against another verse, as opposed to trying to get the context of all the verses together, or so it seems to me.

I showed you the origin of the term ‘Catholic’ as it was used in scriptures. I also showed you where the term was used in 110AD, as an understood term and not an introduction to the term.

In the beginning, they called themselves ‘The Way’, other places we see them referred too as the believers. The Church was ‘brand new’ and went through normal growing pains of distinction. The term Christians was not introduced by Christians, it was something they called the Apostles and is only used once in the New Testament.

It’s not sacred tradition?

Some is, but even those writings don’t hold all the details of Christianity, specifically detailed for ‘modern’ thinking. Modern is something that applied to each new generation and upto present day.

Not true; it’s just not taken as 100% accurate

The question one has to asked themself is, am I discarding accurate by comparing it to today’s beliefs? Which would be more accurate, practices relayed through those closest to the birth of the Church, or practices known today?

nor do I

If no Churches of today are similar to the Church Christ started, where is His Church today?

so do I and some great books have been written over the last century, too .

Who has more insight to the real truth, those men of the early Church, or modern day theologians trying to piece it all together and some seemingly to fit a theology of today?

early Church fathers

But not infallible, IMO

Are those writings you mentioned written in the last century by infallible men? The Bible itself was written by fallible men. The definition of the canon was defined by fallible men. The men who preserved the Bible from it’s beginning to present day were fallible men. Translations were performed by fallible men. Christ knew who and what He was leaving His Church in the hands of.

 

[spn82756]

“From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified they may attain the beatific vision of God” (CCC, par. 1032).

If you want to question the Catechism you are free to do so. I find it a very accurate source. I haven’t had time to research the ECF’s on this particular subject but am interested in doing just that. There are also scriptural references to purgatory (maybe not by name) if you would like.

Both Churches…Catholic and Orthodox…had no belief in purgatory from the beginning. And there were in complete communion. The Orthodox believe in praying for the dead…but NOT in the sense of purgatory. The Orthodox pray for the dead so that they may become closer to God in eternity.

 

[humblelurker]

I am saying that they way they worship hasn’t anything in common with the early church…the Eucharist for example…I am not saying they don’t accept scripture or love Christ…you are twisting my words…I am saying they reject all tradition predating the Bible

I understand that, but I’m asking Catholics if they believe protestants have absolutly nothing at all in common with the early church? Nothing at all? No faith in Christ? No St. Paul’s letters? Nothing at all?

This is a simple yes or no question.

Nothing completely and absolutly at all in common with the early church?

 

[Dokimas]

…you have given me hot air

Our house is a little cool right now. I for one am glad for some hot air. Thank you, SPN.

 

[spn82756]

Our house is a little cool right now. I for one am glad for some hot air. Thank you,

 

[wisdomseeker]

I just lost a long reply. So I’ll address this one.

Do you think the early Church had Mass or Divine Liturgy as we have today? The early Church did certainly believe in the Real Presence. That much we have. Did the early Church have a codified Canon? No. Did the early Church meet in the settings that Orthodox and Catholics ( as well as Anglicans ) do today. I don’t think so. I don’t think the early Church of the 1st…2nd or 3rd centuries followed many of the practices that are followed today. They certainly didn’t have the Creeds. They quite clearly had some different beliefs that were debated through the centuries.

I don’t think any Church resembles the first Churches. As a Catholic I feel with confidence that we and the Orthodox may profess most of the same beliefs…but many of our beliefs have been developed over time.

Christmas wasn’t even celebrated as a solemn feast in the early Church. There have been so many changes.

So Catholics…how does our Church resemble the early Church. Instead of saying what’s different about others…perhaps we should point out what is the same in the Catholic Church today.

I think it is a waist of time to answer to your questions since you dont seem to have the understanding of what is the CC and what she represents here on earth.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

 

[redrosetea]

I understand that, but I’m asking Catholics if they believe protestants have absolutly nothing at all in common with the early church? Nothing at all? No faith in Christ? No St. Paul’s letters? Nothing at all?

This is a simple yes or no question.

Nothing completely and absolutly at all in common with the early church?

Not pre Bible I don’t know what they would believe had the Bible never come into being because it is all they use a basis for their faith…It is not a yes or no question because they reject the sacred traditions that we believe in…The do have things in common with what they know of the early church through scripture but not what is known through tradtion

 

[spn82756]

I think it is a waist of time to answer to your questions since you dont seem to have the understanding of what is the CC and what she represents here on earth.

I have a very good understanding and am a devout Catholic. And I accept Sacred Tradition and Church teachings. But your post indicates the frustration of someone who is lost in trying to prove them correct.

 

[wisdomseeker]

True. 100% carbon copy of the early church, for example: language, clothing, culture, society, etc…

As a Catholic I’m simply playing devil’s advocate…

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Right off the top of my head I would say, “Deaconesses, clothing, language.”

Would you say the post-Vatican II Holy Mass is 100% word for word what they used 2000 years ago?

When I say 100% I mean 100%

you mean that the Church to be the Church of the Bible she has to be a carbon copy of the first century?

has not the world grown larger with different costumes and traditions?

how are you questions going to change the fact the CC is the Church of the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

Might I add Papal infalibility on dogma?

And how often the Mass has changed?

and just how this is going to change the fact that the CC is the Church of the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[jlhargus]

What do we as Catholics have that HAS NOT CHANGED from early Church. The early Church did not believe in purgatory.

JL: If not then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching.

 

[spn82756]

Not pre Bible I don’t know what they would believe had the Bible never come into being because it is all they use a basis for their faith…It is not a yes or no question because they reject the sacred traditions that we believe in…The do have things in common with what they know of the early church through scripture but not what is known through tradtion

Now you’re starting to get to the point. Posters have become aggravated because instead of approaching things from a negative IE…Protestants not having things in common with the early Church…I’m making you…us…me prove what we do have in common. When you start to claim there have been no changes…then you are only pulling the wool over your own eyes.

I’m still waiting for you or someone else to discuss the first 1000 years when Catholics and Orthodox were in Communion. There was no doctrine of purgatory…the Immaculate Conception…the Assumption or the Coronation.

That has you frustrated

 

[wisdomseeker]

First of all…I believe the teachings. Now you demonstrate their existence in the early Church. Especially purgatory. I’ll be waiting.

where was the Church borne? when was she borne? do you know?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[spn82756]

JL: If not then tell us when it was INVENTED and by whom, also name those who objected to adding this false teaching.

I’m not sure I understand your post.

 

[redrosetea]

Anything we offer you as proof you ignore…If you want facts go ask the apologist but I am sure you won’t believe them either