So, i hear...

[humblelurker]

Good luck on that one. As a Catholic that follows all of my Church’s teachings I’ve taken quite a beating because I turned the question around and asked that of Catholics. By doing that people become quite vile! Especially those with limited education…such as SteveVH. They figure it’s better to start a name calling game. Of course I am guilty of allowing myself to participate in it.

When I see posts indicating the Mass is the same now as it was 2000 years ago…I get a real chuckle.

1. What is the Latin Mass?
The Latin Mass is often called the Tridentine Latin Mass, a reference to the fact that it was codified by Pope St. Pius V shortly after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), from which is derived the term “Tridentine.” Contrary to what some people think, Pope St. Pius V did not issue a new Mass but simply unified the already existing liturgy. His Quo Primum decree not only declared that this Mass was to remain unchanged for all time, but it forbade the introduction of new Mass liturgies. The Latin Mass itself can rightly be called the Mass of the Apostles since it dates back to the time of Our Lord and the Apostles. Remnants of early liturgies parallel the Tridentine Latin Mass in its essential details.

Now…the Norvus Ordo is not the same as the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass has different prayers. Prayers for conversion of the Jews. Different Eucharistic Prayer. Different styles. Even the direction the priest faces is a major stumbling block for Traditional Catholics in the Norvus Ordo. Communion on the tongue only and of 1 Species only. On your knees at the alter rail.

**Talk to SSPX or other followers of the Latin Mass and you will find a great deal of dislike toward the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo is so different than the Latin Mass that SSPX and many that attend the Latin Mass do not consider attending the Novus Ordo to be fulfilling the Sunday requirement. EVEN the idea of a vigil Mass is ridiculed by SSPX as against early Catholic teaching. There are many more differences…but don’t tell SteveVH **(the arrogant) that because he will tell you you are lost.

Isn’t his arrogance bliss?

Nobody said playing devil’s advocate is easy. I have learned patience and mercy in my life in helping someone handicapped, in my own chronic illness, and in my own stubborn lack of understanding from time to time. Have patience. All things in God’s time.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yep…but unfortunately when a faithful Catholic (and I am) challenges other Catholics in the same way those other Catholics have challenged non-Catholics…the love seems to end and animosity catches on. Perhaps you could read some post by SteveVH.

These are theological debates. Some of the Protestants come here only to challenge the faith, in anyway they can. There are parts of explanations, scriptures and other sources ignored to maintain an agenda of ‘bashing’ or undermining Catholicsim. Are there some inappropriate responses? Yes, there are. I can only say that because of my own actions. I cannot judge others.

We all seek, or should seek, a unification. A divide between Catholics and Protestants is not going to close if we open divides among ourselves.

Vengeance is not ours and we are not enemies, even if we were…

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:

How are we forgiven?

**Luk 6:37 Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven. **

 

[humblelurker]

i guess you are. at first i thought what is he doing? but i realize, indeed you are playing the devil’s advocate. continue please.

Jeepers the jig is up.

Please meditate on what is being said.

 

[spn82756]

i guess you are. at first i thought what is he doing? but i realize, indeed you are playing the devil’s advocate. continue please.

As I said I was doing yesterday afternoon when I made the challenge to other Catholics.

 

[humblelurker]

Resemble: to be like or similar to
Being would be
Should I have contrasted “being” and “Identical in every respect”?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS

I should have said:

Resemble: to be like or similar to
Being would be

Now I’ve got the song, “I am my own grandpa.” in my head.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think you raise a good point. When I first read the title of this thread I said to myself - here we go again.

Let me say this… Catholics - Protestants - Insert Denomination Name Here - take a look at the log in your own eye.

I’d rather travel through this life with you - hand and hand - with our eyes on the Lord.

Thanks Nine_Two for pointing this out to me - my responses, thoughts, and questions need to be handled in love and charity. And for sure I have not always acted this way here.

here is what the holy father has to say about this.

“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

Jeepers the jig is up.

Please meditate on what is being said.

Oh i am believe me.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

Since my point is irrelevant to you then what is the point?
I am playing devil’s advocate in stating that no Christian Church today is a 100% perfect carbon copy of the early church. Now I’m not talking about the core elements alone mind you or the development of doctrine but in every single way, language, culture, society, technology, thoughts, history, people, problems, etc… I am setting up an impossible standard to achieve by anyone so that everyone will fall short of the glory, so to speak. Do Protestants have nothing at all that the early church had? No faith. No scriptures. What about Baptism? Nothing?
I will break character and tell you something personal:
Being the son of converts to Catholicism I look at it this way. Converts come into the Catholic Church and don’t completely loose faith. It is like a person who has been eating bread and drinking water all their lives then suddenly looks up and sees the table is filled with a cornucopia of the deposit of faith. Are we to deny them what little they have, or are we to help them understand there is more?
To answer your question on a personal note: Which do I personally believe resembles the Church of the Bible? The CC or the Protestants congregations? As a Catholic I say the CC, but that does not address my point. Now that I answered your question, will you now answer my questions?

to tell you the truth i have no idea why some of you get angry with my questions. i am defending the Faith against the accusers. get mad at them and not me, those who accuses the CC of not being the Church of the Bible. which this is what has been happening. people can accuse the CC of anything but when Catholics come to her defense attacks are launched. where is your charity here.

since when Catholics are no longer allowed to defend the Faith, because if we do it is considered uncharitable.

i follow the holy father. he is defending the Faith and he is making a lot of enemies. go holy father, we are with you.

 

[wisdomseeker]

One Truth, but that does not address my points.

if you believe in One Truth, then stand up and defend it with all you might. dont try to waterdown for the sake of being called good.

 

[spn82756]

to tell you the truth i have no idea why some of you get angry with my questions. i am defending the Faith against the accusers. get mad at them and not me, those who accuses the CC of not being the Church of the Bible. which this is what has been happening. people can accuse the CC of anything but when Catholics come to her defense attacks are launched. where is your charity here.

since when Catholics are no longer allowed to defend the Faith, because if we do it is considered uncharitable.

i follow the holy father. he is defending the Faith and he is making a lot of enemies. go holy father, we are with you.

Actually by playing devils advocate I gave you plenty of opportunity to defend the Catholic (my) faith. It denigrated into name calling. Perhaps not so much by you…but by SteveVH and then that was followed by a band of those that can’t defend the faith.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Good luck on that one. As a Catholic that follows all of my Church’s teachings I’ve taken quite a beating because I turned the question around and asked that of Catholics. By doing that people become quite vile! Especially those with limited education…such as SteveVH. They figure it’s better to start a name calling game. Of course I am guilty of allowing myself to participate in it.

When I see posts indicating the Mass is the same now as it was 2000 years ago…I get a real chuckle.

1. What is the Latin Mass?
The Latin Mass is often called the Tridentine Latin Mass, a reference to the fact that it was codified by Pope St. Pius V shortly after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), from which is derived the term “Tridentine.” Contrary to what some people think, Pope St. Pius V did not issue a new Mass but simply unified the already existing liturgy. His Quo Primum decree not only declared that this Mass was to remain unchanged for all time, but it forbade the introduction of new Mass liturgies. The Latin Mass itself can rightly be called the Mass of the Apostles since it dates back to the time of Our Lord and the Apostles. Remnants of early liturgies parallel the Tridentine Latin Mass in its essential details.

Now…the Norvus Ordo is not the same as the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass has different prayers. Prayers for conversion of the Jews. Different Eucharistic Prayer. Different styles. Even the direction the priest faces is a major stumbling block for Traditional Catholics in the Norvus Ordo. Communion on the tongue only and of 1 Species only. On your knees at the alter rail.

**Talk to SSPX or other followers of the Latin Mass and you will find a great deal of dislike toward the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo is so different than the Latin Mass that SSPX and many that attend the Latin Mass do not consider attending the Novus Ordo to be fulfilling the Sunday requirement. EVEN the idea of a vigil Mass is ridiculed by SSPX as against early Catholic teaching. There are many more differences…but don’t tell SteveVH **(the arrogant) that because he will tell you you are lost.

Isn’t his arrogance bliss?

and what this has to do with my questions? because the liberals took over the Church and changed things around it does not mean the Church is not the Church of Bible, does it? dont judge by appearances.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yep…but unfortunately when a faithful Catholic (and I am) challenges other Catholics in the same way those other Catholics have challenged non-Catholics…the love seems to end and animosity catches on. Perhaps you could read some post by SteveVH.

Love one another does not mean: dont tell them the Truth because they will get angry. please.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

As I said I was doing yesterday afternoon when I made the challenge to other Catholics.

gotta it.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[wisdomseeker]

Actually by playing devils advocate I gave you plenty of opportunity to defend the Catholic (my) faith. It denigrated into name calling. Perhaps not so much by you…but by SteveVH and then that was followed by a band of those that can’t defend the faith.

i think you should reconsider your statement against Steve. he has done nothing that was offensive. perhaps you are being too sensitive about it. you have been accusing him of something which you are doing yourself. it is not that they cannot defend the Faith, since you consider yourself to be a Catholic and you are here, we just assume you would know the answers. the doctrines of the Church are not invented, it is not something that the Sheperds one day woke up and whispered among themselves and said: today we are going to declare this doctrine. we think you know this. these doctrines are not ideas of the man in the Church. there are many things that were tought by the Apostles orally that only the Church knows.

**
“Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary.” BXVI**

 

[spn82756]

i think you should reconsider your statement against Steve. he has done nothing that was offensive. perhaps you are being too sensitive about it. you have been accusing him of something which you are doing yourself. it is not that they cannot defend the Faith, since you consider yourself to be a Catholic and you are here, we just assume you would know the answers. the doctrines of the Church are not invented, it is not something that the Sheperds one day woke up and whispered among themselves and said: today we are going to declare this doctrine. we think you know this. these doctrines are not ideas of the man in the Church. there are many things that were tought by the Apostles orally that only the Church knows.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

I’ll tell ya what. Since as I made clear yesterday and again today that I was trying to play devils advocate…and PERHAPS he misunderstood…I’ll be glad to have mutual retracting of calling each other arrogant and he asking sarcastically

SteveVH:

You know, I’m not sure I have ever encountered a “Catholic” who is so opposed to the Church’s teachings. Are you really a Catholic or are you a troll?

Keep in mind that before he made this post…I said that I was playing devils advocate.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I’ll tell ya what. Since as I made clear yesterday and again today that I was trying to play devils advocate…and PERHAPS he misunderstood…I’ll be glad to have mutual retracting of calling each other arrogant and he asking sarcastically

Keep in mind that before he made this post…I said that I was playing devils advocate.

Thank you. let’s hope for that.

devil’s advocate, i like that. very clever indeed.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

 

[humblelurker]

to tell you the truth i have no idea why some of you get angry with my questions. i am defending the Faith against the accusers. get mad at them and not me, those who accuses the CC of not being the Church of the Bible. which this is what has been happening. people can accuse the CC of anything but when Catholics come to her defense attacks are launched. where is your charity here.

since when Catholics are no longer allowed to defend the Faith, because if we do it is considered uncharitable.

i follow the holy father. he is defending the Faith and he is making a lot of enemies. go holy father, we are with you.

Trust me there is no hostility here with me. We must deny what wrongs exist, of course, while upholding the truth, even if it means swallowing our pride and giving others the benefit of what truth they possess. Building upon the common truth we all possess to the total truth we all desire (Christ Himself: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity).

Sigh…I will answer my questions:
Question: Do Protestants have nothing at all that the early church had? No faith. No scriptures. What about Baptism? Nothing?
Answer: Of course they do; some more than others, depending on the denomination. For example, Baptism of a Baptist is accepted as valid by the Catholic Church, and Baptism itself dates to the early church. Read Justin Martyr. Theopilus of Antioch. Irenaeus. Tertullian. Or even Hippolytus of Rome for starters on baptism. Not to mention faith in Christ and what canon of scripture they have.
Question: Are we Catholics to deny them what little they have (from a Catholic view), or are we to help them understand there is more?
Answer: No, we Catholics are not to deny them what little they have (from a Catholic view), and we are to help them understand there is more.

The title question, “Can Protestants show us that their congregations resembles the Church of the Bible?” is clearly impossible for anyone when taken to extremes. Is it a trick question?

P.S. I am not watering down for the sake of being called good. You refused to answer me or to understand what I am saying.

I must sign off because I have work I need to do.
Peace and Grace of Christ be with you.

 

[jlhargus]

Good luck on that one. As a Catholic that follows all of my Church’s teachings I’ve taken quite a beating because I turned the question around and asked that of Catholics. By doing that people become quite vile! Especially those with limited education…such as SteveVH. They figure it’s better to start a name calling game. Of course I am guilty of allowing myself to participate in it.

When I see posts indicating the Mass is the same now as it was 2000 years ago…I get a real chuckle.

1. What is the Latin Mass?
The Latin Mass is often called the Tridentine Latin Mass, a reference to the fact that it was codified by Pope St. Pius V shortly after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), from which is derived the term “Tridentine.” Contrary to what some people think, Pope St. Pius V did not issue a new Mass but simply unified the already existing liturgy. His Quo Primum decree not only declared that this Mass was to remain unchanged for all time, but it forbade the introduction of new Mass liturgies. The Latin Mass itself can rightly be called the Mass of the Apostles since it dates back to the time of Our Lord and the Apostles. Remnants of early liturgies parallel the Tridentine Latin Mass in its essential details.

Now…the Norvus Ordo is not the same as the Latin Mass. The Latin Mass has different prayers. Prayers for conversion of the Jews. Different Eucharistic Prayer. Different styles. Even the direction the priest faces is a major stumbling block for Traditional Catholics in the Norvus Ordo. Communion on the tongue only and of 1 Species only. On your knees at the alter rail.

**Talk to SSPX or other followers of the Latin Mass and you will find a great deal of dislike toward the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo is so different than the Latin Mass that SSPX and many that attend the Latin Mass do not consider attending the Novus Ordo to be fulfilling the Sunday requirement. EVEN the idea of a vigil Mass is ridiculed by SSPX as against early Catholic teaching. There are many more differences…but don’t tell SteveVH **(the arrogant) that because he will tell you you are lost.

Isn’t his arrogance bliss?

JL: If arrogance is bliss you must be in eternal heavenly bliss. Judas will always be among us. By the way do Protestants need a Catholic advocate?

 

[Dokimas]

True. Jesus also said: “and thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against.”

St Paul inspired by the HS, the Spirit of Truth, said: the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth." do you think he was talking about a congregation that was formed 2000 yrs later by a man after he read the Bible?

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI

Well I don’t think the Rock Jesus built His church upon was Peter nor do I think the church Jesus spoke of was or is the CC.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well I don’t think the Rock Jesus built His church upon was Peter nor do I think the church Jesus spoke of was or is the CC.

Then you believe the Church was upon Peter’s confession? If so, how did a confession receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose on earth, and the authority to forgive and retain sins?