So, i hear...

[Young_Thinker]

I do not know if anyone has already mentioned this, but what about the fact that Protestants do not recognize any of the Apocrypha as belonging in the Bible?

 

[Dokimas]

Then you believe the Church was upon Peter’s confession? If so, how did a confession receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose on earth, and the authority to forgive and retain sins?

Yes.​

Two separate things; Peter got the keys. See below.​

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes.​

Two separate things; Peter got the keys. See below.​

Matthew 16:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

So you believe in the primacy of Peter?

 

[Dokimas]

So you believe in the primacy of Peter?

I’m not sure what primacy is; I don’t think he was THE leader but a leader of the early church. Seems Paul and James where at least as important leaders as Peter.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m not sure what primacy is; I don’t think he was THE leader but a leader of the early church. Seems Paul and James where at least as important leaders as Peter.

Did they get keys too?

 

[Dokimas]

Did they get keys too?

I’m not exactly sure what the keys are; sounds metaphorical to me. So I don’t know if they got keys or not.​

Who has the keys now?​

Re 1:18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

 

[redrosetea]

I’m not sure what primacy is; I don’t think he was THE leader but a leader of the early church. Seems Paul and James where at least as important leaders as Peter.

No Kepas was Peter the Rock…Anytime in scripture you see the change of a name it means they are very important people…Saul became Paul…but he was not Kepas, which means rock

Peter was given the keeys of the kingdom as promised in Isaiah…he was given the power to loose and to bind…these things were not given to the others only to Peter

Kepas in Aramaic means rock.

 

[redrosetea]

No Kepas was Peter the Rock…Anytime in scripture you see the change of a name it means they are very important people…Saul became Paul…but he was not Kepas, which means rock

Peter was given the keeys of the kingdom as promised in Isaiah…he was given the power to loose and to bind…these things were not given to the others only to Peter

Kepas in Aramaic means rock.

The pope always hold the keys in an unbroken line back to Peter

 

[Young_Thinker]

I do not know if anyone has already mentioned this, but what about the fact that Protestants do not recognize any of the Apocrypha as belonging in the Bible?

In addition, many of them think that the K.J.V. of the Bible is its most accurate version, which seems to be very contradictory.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m not exactly sure what the keys are; sounds metaphorical to me. So I don’t know if they got keys or not.​

Who has the keys now?​

Re 1:18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelations states, ‘…the keys of Hades and of Death.’ Why doesn’t it mention the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

If Peter was a leader, and scriptures shows Apostolic succession, then his successor has the keys.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

I know you’ve seen Isaiah 22 that shows that David, who sat upon the Davidic throne, gave the keys to his ‘house’ to Eliacim. The holder of the king’s keys was his prime minister, who acted on behalf of the king in his abscence.

Isa 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Now, we know Peter received the keys, because scripture tells us he did. Could it be that you don’t know if James or Paul had the keys is because it’s not in the scriptures? Why would it be important for the inspired word of God to tell us of one receiving the keys, but not the other two, had they received them?

 

[Young_Thinker]

Also, I do not think that it is a coincidence that there are Protestant denominations and a few Eastern Orthodox ones but only one recognized Catholic church(ignoring subdenominational parties like the Anglo-Catholics).

 

[Dokimas]

Revelations states, ‘…the keys of Hades and of Death.’ Why doesn’t it mention the keys to the kingdom of heaven? True. Good point

If Peter was a leader, and scriptures shows Apostolic succession, then his successor has the keys. Does it follow that only THE leader gets the key? What kind of leader was Eliakim? Was he king?

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take. I think they chose the wrong person. I’ve written on that subject in this forum before.

I know you’ve seen Isaiah 22 that shows that David, who sat upon the Davidic throne, gave the keys to his ‘house’ to Eliacim. The holder of the king’s keys was his prime minister, who acted on behalf of the king in his abscence. Are you sure David did the giving? Looks to me like God did the giving.

Isa 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Now, we know Peter received the keys, because scripture tells us he did. Are we sure they are the same keys? If so, why? Could it be that you don’t know if James or Paul had the keys is because it’s not in the scriptures? Sure. I’ve not read that they got any keys. But then again I haven’t read that Peter was to pass the keys to someone else or that he in fact did pass them.
Why would it be important for the inspired word of God to tell us of one receiving the keys, but not the other two, had they received them? Good point. Why would it be important to tell us Peter got them but Peter never mentioned them in his writings; so maybe they are as imortant as you think?/QUOTE]

 

[humblelurker]

I am being told that I need to stop posting on CAF, so I will see you on the flip side everyone.

 

[schaick]

I’m not exactly sure what the keys are; sounds metaphorical to me. So I don’t know if they got keys or not.​

Who has the keys now?​

Re 1:18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Exactly who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven right now?

I am so glad this came up again- I had a few more questions when the thread was closed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6207420&postcount=1030

I hope I wasn’t the reason the thread was closed. I find the whole discussion about the Keys very interesting, but can’t quite grasp what Catholics believe they are or if and when they are given to Priests.

The statement by a Catholic confused me a bit “authority to bind and loose is authority to set doctrines.” I see this person is also confused!

Don’t Priests forgive and discipline in the Catholic Church?

981 After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."526 The apostles and their successors carry out this “ministry of reconciliation,” not only by announcing to men God’s forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:527

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

True. Good point

Does it follow that only THE leader gets the key? What kind of leader was Eliakim? Was he king?

Eliakim became a leader, second only to the king, King David.

I think they chose the wrong person. I’ve written on that subject in this forum before.

If they were the leaders, which is not in dispute the 12 chosen and appointed were certainly the leaders, they had every right to choose whoever they decided upon. But, they, the Apostles, prayed and let God decide. They truly believed in all that Christ had spoken to them and they showed faith in Him and His word.

Act 1:24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the heart of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Are you sure David did the giving? Looks to me like God did the giving.

Good point, however, who bestowed the keys to the kingdom of heaven to Peter?

Are we sure they are the same keys?

Jews considered the Davidic throne to be the throne of God. The prime minister for Christ would sit upon His earthly throne, in the King’s earthly abscence. Scriptures tell us it was the same throne.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Keys to the house of David, in his kingdom…keys to the kingdom of heaven, unto the throne of David. The typology is quite clear. David’s house, Jesus’ house, David’d kingdom, Jesus’ kingdom…one throne, from the old covenant to the new covenant.

Sure. I’ve not read that they got any keys. But then again I haven’t read that Peter was to pass the keys to someone else or that he in fact did pass them.

Now is where we have to discern, or use the minds God gave us. Peter was chosen leader and scriptures tell us that there is to be a succession. A ‘bishopric’ is an office of authority and all authority would pass to a successor.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Good point. Why would it be important to tell us Peter got them but Peter never mentioned them in his writings; so maybe they are as imortant as you think?/

Christ more than mentioned them, before witnesses. There was no need for Peter, who received several lessons of humility from the Lord, to repeat what Christ had done. Christ mentioned them with the announcement about building His Church, that even the gates of hell shall not prevail against. He mentioned them with the authority to bind and loose. He mentioned them at the same time He explained Simon’s name change.

Name changes in the Bible were significant and always came with an explanation. Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. Likewise, Simon becomes Peter because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.

 

[schaick]

Revelation 1
18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus is the only one who has conquered death.

Ultimately He holds the Keys to everything.

 

[redrosetea]

Exactly who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven right now?

I am so glad this came up again- I had a few more questions when the thread was closed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6207420&postcount=1030

I hope I wasn’t the reason the thread was closed. I find the whole discussion about the Keys very interesting, but can’t quite grasp what Catholics believe they are or if and when they are given to Priests.

The statement by a Catholic confused me a bit “authority to bind and loose is authority to set doctrines.” I see this person is also confused!

Don’t Priests forgive and discipline in the Catholic Church?

981 After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."526 The apostles and their successors carry out this “ministry of reconciliation,” not only by announcing to men God’s forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:527

From Rev Know it all

The Catechism of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Paragraph 553) says that

“the power to bind and loose connotes the authority to absolve sins, to make doctrinal judgments and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church.”

In other words, like the rabbis, the power to bind and loose is the authority and responsibility to interpret and apply the law of God. Jesus made Peter and his successors rabbis to the world and limited this teaching function to them.

Theologians and teachers may argue, but it is up to the pope to make the final interpretation. The pope cannot change the law of God, but he must interpret it and apply it to each new era in the Church’s life. He cannot, like the Mormons do, announce that God has changed his mind about one thing or another. What is written in heaven is written.

The pope cannot wake up one day and say: “Golly, I think I’ll make adultery legal.”

For instance, the power of the keys defines adultery by defining marriage, but always within the limits of what has been faithfully handed down. Can two people be married without a priest or deacon present?

Amazingly enough, yes!

In Canon 1112, we read that the local conference of Catholic bishops with the permission of the papal office can delegate people to validly perform marriage ceremonies where no clergy are available. This comes under the heading of “to bind and loose.”

If I decide to go to Reno and have an Elvis impersonator perform my marriage, well, Sorry, out of Luck! You’re not the pope, and neither am I, thank God.

It is a matter of great inspiration to me that the few renaissance popes who were not of the best character never proclaimed that a pope was free to break the prohibition against adultery. This wonderful power to bind and loose has never been used for personal convenience and has in fact been used very sparingly.

There have been lots of papal proclamations that, by our standards seems odd, but no Pope has ever added a twelfth or even an eleventh commandment or crossed out any of the ten. What Heaven has said, Heaven has said.

To this, Jesus added the wonderful and shocking ability to forgive sins and to proclaim that forgiveness.

Why was this added?

Certain involuntary sins were forgiven by animal sacrifice in the temple, but among the ancient Hebrew, nothing forgave willful serious sin. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice that had been promised and His sacrifice can forgive any sinner, provided that sinner is authentically repentant. Even the power of the Church to forgive is limited!

The pope himself cannot forgive a sinner who refuses to repent. I can block the great mercy and power of God working in the Church. Scary, no? Still, Jesus gave authority to the Church to give the world what He had won on the Cross: forgiveness for every sin. But, the Church can and must deny forgiveness to the individual who refuses to repent.

For instance, if an abortionist confesses that he has performed abortions and is sorry but must continue doing so, after all, business is business, I cannot absolve him.

The Church, through the priesthood of Christ acts in the person of Christ.

We do what he did. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus turned away unrepentant sinners with great sadness.

Think of the rich young man of the Gospel (Mark 10:17)

This bring us to your question.

We can only do what Jesus did, nothing more, nothing less

The pope cannot innovate. He can only interpret, and in that sense he is rabbi to the world.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exactly who holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven right now?

The successor to Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

I am so glad this came up again- I had a few more questions when the thread was closed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6207420&postcount=1030

I hope I wasn’t the reason the thread was closed. I find the whole discussion about the Keys very interesting, but can’t quite grasp what Catholics believe they are or if and when they are given to Priests.

Threads close once a moderator sees it has reached 1000 posts.

Keys are not given to but one, the Bishop of Rome.

The statement by a Catholic confused me a bit “authority to bind and loose is authority to set doctrines.” I see this person is also confused!

Don’t Priests forgive and discipline in the Catholic Church?

981 After his Resurrection, Christ sent his apostles "so that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."526 The apostles and their successors carry out this “ministry of reconciliation,” not only by announcing to men God’s forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins in Baptism, and reconciling them with God and with the Church through the power of the keys, received from Christ:527

Priests work under the direction of a Bishop.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Revelation 1
18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus is the only one who has conquered death.

Ultimately He holds the Keys to everything.

Did you miss what I said about that verse? It does not mention the keys to the kingdom of heavne. Matthew 16 specifically states, ‘keys to the kingdom of heaven.’

 

[wisdomseeker]

Trust me there is no hostility here with me. We must deny what wrongs exist, of course, while upholding the truth, even if it means swallowing our pride and giving others the benefit of what truth they possess. Building upon the common truth we all possess to the total truth we all desire (Christ Himself: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity).

Sigh…I will answer my questions:
Question: Do Protestants have nothing at all that the early church had? No faith. No scriptures. What about Baptism? Nothing?
Answer: Of course they do; some more than others, depending on the denomination. For example, Baptism of a Baptist is accepted as valid by the Catholic Church, and Baptism itself dates to the early church. Read Justin Martyr. Theopilus of Antioch. Irenaeus. Tertullian. Or even Hippolytus of Rome for starters on baptism. Not to mention faith in Christ and what canon of scripture they have.
Question: Are we Catholics to deny them what little they have (from a Catholic view), or are we to help them understand there is more?
Answer: No, we Catholics are not to deny them what little they have (from a Catholic view), and we are to help them understand there is more.

The title question, “Can Protestants show us that their congregations resembles the Church of the Bible?” is clearly impossible for anyone when taken to extremes. Is it a trick question?

P.S. I am not watering down for the sake of being called good. You refused to answer me or to understand what I am saying.

I must sign off because I have work I need to do.
Peace and Grace of Christ be with you.

answer this. where did they get these things from? Baptism, faith, the Bible,and whatever.

any Truth they have was taking from the CC. they didnt get from the Apostles themselves like the CC. tell me if they have any Truth that was not taking from the CC.

"Without truth, charity ends up in sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled arbitrarily. It is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth. It falls prey to the emotions and contingent opinions of the individuals, an abused and distorted word, to the point of signifying the contrary." BXVI