So, i hear...

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I have not assigned a Christian movement to apostasy. I am open to correction if you’d please provide where I’ve stated other than that. I do believe the Catholic Church is the Church of the Bible, the one that Christ built. I believe Protestant Churchs received their beliefs through that Church. As I’ve explained numerous times, we are connected through those parts, whether others want to admit to that or not. No one has shown me differently, other than ‘speculative’ or opinionated rejections, without any explanations or sources to support their claims.

Your doubts are explained in the religion stated in your profile. However, as I’ve said before, it seems your only objection is with Catholicism and not all who choose to believe.
I have no truck with Catholicism per se at all. The faith has produced many a fine person. Of course I do not object to all who chose to believe. There are many broadminded Catholics here, and I have received some fine hellos from a few, which I have received warmly.

Clearly, I am doubtful, yes, and have always been rather ecumenical in my outlook. And certainly so about whose “church” most closely resembles the brief reference to “rock” (metaphor) and “key” (metaphor) of Matthew (gospel).
 
I have no truck with Catholicism per se at all. The faith has produced many a fine person. Of course I do not object to all who chose to believe. There are many broadminded Catholics here, and I have received some fine hellos from a few, which I have received warmly.

Clearly, I am doubtful, yes, and have always been rather ecumenical in my outlook. And certainly so about whose “church” most closely resembles the brief reference to “rock” (metaphor) and “key” (metaphor) of Matthew (gospel).
Now it’s only a ‘brief’ references…that was very specific.
 
All Protestants hear this pronouncement from time to time.

Even many other faiths make the same claim.
only the CC and EO.

if there are others please tell us.

a holy quote i got from another thread. i could not resist but copy.

** “To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it” St ignatious of Loyola**
 
The context of Matthew 16 is very clear. There seems to be a search for other scriptures that can be read to contradict what Matthew 16 tells us about Peter, the keys and the authority to bind and loose, or else what the Catholics say is true.

Yes, Christ told Peter he would deny Him three times, yet He still went to Peter, and singled Him out, once again after Peter had returned fishing. What did Christ tell him, three times, once He singled Him out again? Feed my lambs, feed my lambs, feed my sheep and follow me.

Christ forgave. He forgave Thomas’ doubting and He forgave Peter’s denial. Christ knew all men and all things, yet He gave Peter the keys to begin with.

Now, obvious choice you say? Did Christ know all things? Did Christ say what sins they forgave would be forgiven? In fact, show me one instance where Christ denied forgivness. Protestants debate once saved always saved and yet they say it’s ‘obvious’ that Peter was given nothing because he denied the Lord???

Oh, look the Lord talks about servants, servants can’t be leaders! Come on, the Apostles served God by answering their calling to lead His Church. These verses provided are being twisted to fit a theology while ignoring a much more clearly stated passage. These verses were posted without a detailed explanation to show there was no leadership, because a detailed explanation will not fit and hold.
I do believe that He was given authority, I dont believe he was given authority over the others.
 
I do believe that He was given authority, I dont believe he was given authority over the others.
**Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee. There you shall see him, as he told you.

Luk 24:34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus and Simon Zelotes and Jude the brother of James.
Act 1:14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 1:15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty):
Act 1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:
Act 1:17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men who have companied with us, all the time that the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us,
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the heart of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave them lot, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Act 2:14 But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you and with your ears receive my words.

Act 2:41 They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.

Act 3:6 But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise and walk.
Act 3:7 And taking him by the right hand, he lifted him up: and forthwith his feet and soles received strength.

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Saphira his wife, sold a piece of land,
Act 5:2 And by fraud kept back part of the price of the land, his wife being privy thereunto: and bringing a certain part of it, laid it at the feet of the apostles.
Act 5:3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost and by fraud keep part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? And after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God.
Act 5:5 And Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it.
Act 5:6 And the young men rising up, removed him, and carrying him out, buried him.
Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what had happened, came in.
Act 5:8 And Peter said to her: Tell me, woman, whether you sold the land for so much? And she said: Yea, for so much.
Act 5:9 And Peter said unto her: Why have you agreed together to tempt the spirit of the Lord? Behold the feet of them who have buried thy husband are at the door: and they shall carry thee out,
Act 5:10 Immediately, she fell down before his feet and gave up the ghost. And the young men coming in found her dead: and carried her out and buried her by her husband.
Act 5:11 And there came great fear upon the whole church and upon all that heard these things.

Act 8:21 Thou hast no part nor lot in this matter. For thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Act 10:44 While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. **
 
I do believe that He was given authority, I dont believe he was given authority over the others.
Peter’s name always heads the list of Apostles

**Mat 10:1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.
Mat 10:2 And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
Mat 10:3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
Mat 10:4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mar 3:16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter:
Mar 3:17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder.
Mar 3:18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus and Simon the Cananean:
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Luk 6:14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
Luk 6:16 And Jude the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus and Simon Zelotes and Jude the brother of James.**

Peter and his companions who were not named.

**Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep. And waking, they saw his glory and the two men that stood with him.

Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee. There you shall see him, as he told you.**

Peter spoke for the Apostles

**Mat 18:21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mar 8:29 Then he saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

Luk 8:45 And Jesus said: Who is it that touched me? And all denying, Peter and they that were with him said: Master, the multitudes throng and press thee; and dost thou say, who touched me?

Luk 12:41 And Peter said to him: Lord, dost thou speak this parable to us, or likewise to all?

Joh 6:68 (6:69) And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. **

Peter’s name appears 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles put together.
 
This is a Catholic forum. I am a Catholic. I will defend the Catholic Church, passionately. There is one body of Christ, which is His Church. As I explained on another thread, in response to you, Protestants are a part of that Church, whether they are willing to admit that or not. Protestantism came from the Catholic Church. The parts of the beliefs they took, came from the Catholic Church. Is it enough? I pray it is.
Im glad to admit that Im your brother in Christ.
 
Im glad to admit that Im your brother in Christ.
Sometimes, in the heat of explaining our views, we overlook the important things. I apologize that’s the first time you saw that was a part of my views.
 
Peter’s name always heads the list of Apostles
:confused: Well not always Prod.

Jn 1:35 The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples.

36And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God.

37And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38And Jesus turning, and seeing them following him, saith to them: What seek you? Who said to him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39He saith to them: Come and see. They came, and saw where he abode, and they stayed with him that day: now it was about the tenth hour.

40And Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who had heard of John, and followed him.

41He findeth first his brother Simon, and saith to him: We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Here wasn’t Andrew the first Apostle to declare Christ the Messiah and then told his brother Peter? 🤷
 
:confused: Well not always Prod.

Jn 1:35 The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples.

36And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God.

37And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38And Jesus turning, and seeing them following him, saith to them: What seek you? Who said to him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39He saith to them: Come and see. They came, and saw where he abode, and they stayed with him that day: now it was about the tenth hour.

40And Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who had heard of John, and followed him.

41He findeth first his brother Simon, and saith to him: We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Here wasn’t Andrew the first Apostle to declare Christ the Messiah and then told his brother Peter? 🤷
That John you’re using is John the Baptist and his disciples. They followed Jesus and became His disciples, the two disciples.

And yet, God revealed the answer to Peter when the others said, John the Baptist, Elijah and Jeremiah, in Matthew 16, even Andrew did not know the correct answer at that point.

To show that Christ knew all things, this was the first time He called Simon, ‘rock’.

**Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter. **

Cephas is Aramaic for ‘rock’.

G2786
Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas’
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.
 
That John you’re using is John the Baptist and his disciples. They followed Jesus and became His disciples, the two disciples.

And yet, God revealed the answer to Peter when the others said, John the Baptist, Elijah and Jeremiah, in Matthew 16, even Andrew did not know the correct answer at that point.

To show that Christ knew all things, this was the first time He called Simon, ‘rock’.

**Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter. **

Cephas is Aramaic for ‘rock’.

G2786
Κηφᾶς
Kēphas
kay-fas’
Of Chaldee origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.
Prod, I knew that was the Baptist. I didn’t think I said anything indicating I didn’t. But the Apostle John is writing the Gospel in which the story about the Baptist and Andrew and another disciple of the Baptist is told to us. Andrew and this other disciple of the Baptist learn of Christ being the Messiah before Peter did and then Andrew tells Peter according to the Apostle John.

How could Andrew not have known if he was the one who told Peter according to the Apostle John?

The Cephas, Petros, petra etc you know have differing interpretations as to rock, stone and all that for Catholics and Protestants. That hasn’t seemed to solve anything. 🙂
 

[SIGN]ProdicalSon said: “Peter’s name always heads the list of Apostles”[/SIGN]​

Where was it that Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first?​

 

[SIGN]ProdicalSon said: “Peter’s name always heads the list of Apostles”[/SIGN]​

Where was it that Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first?​

Good day Dok.

blessings of our Lord God and His Church be upon you.

**“To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it” St ignatious of **Loyola
 
Thank you and to you as well. I hope all is well with you and yours!!
and so it is. thank you.

"To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it" St ignatious of Loyola
 
Sexual morality is not central to Christian faith, and Jesus only addressed it briefly. It is not part of the Nicene Creed. It is a point of contention among Christian denominations, but not a cause for apostasy.
are you serious? are you saying that God doesnt care about moral issues because it was addressed only few times?

**

“To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it” St ignatious of Loyola**
 

[SIGN]ProdicalSon said: “Peter’s name always heads the list of Apostles”[/SIGN]​

Where was it that Jesus said the first shall be last and the last shall be first?​

I see that as twisting scriptures to fit a belief.

Peter did not appoint himself, Christ did.

Using your ‘spin’, do you put Christ first?
 
I see that as twisting scriptures to fit a belief.

Peter did not appoint himself, Christ did.

Using your ‘spin’, do you put Christ first?

Interesting comments. I’m sure you don’t think you do the same.​

I would not include Jesus in His teachings to His disciples. I sure you don’t either because if you did you’d have to say the disciples broken bodies and shed blood has redemptive qualities as the Broken Body and Spilled Blood of Jesus.​

 
Sexual morality is not central to Christian faith, and Jesus only addressed it briefly. It is not part of the Nicene Creed. It is a point of contention among Christian denominations, but not a cause for apostasy.
Seems Jesus said (and Paul too) that sexual immorality can separate one from the ‘Christian faith’. Jesus may have bee brief (Paul wasn’t so brief) but quite powerfully.
 
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