So I ordered a New Jerusalem Bible

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It is untrue, of course, that the Catholic Church deplored vernacular translations. What she has always deplored are unauthorised translations: The Gothic Bishop Ulfilas in the 4th Century produced a “translation” into the Gothic language that “corrected” certain passages to accord with his own Arian heretical views. His “Gothic Bible” probably had a major influence on the widespread adoption of Arianism among the Germanic tribes that spread all over Europe in the next few centuries, with profound implications for the course of civilisation – and barbarism.

It was only very gradually that nation-states and standard national languages emerged from the breakup of the Roman Empire. People simply didn’t think of themselves as speaking “French” or “Italian” or “Spanish” – of which there were innumerable dialects, one for each city or town almost – they had “The High Tongue” (ie Latin) for formal occasions and “The Low Tongue” or “The Vulgar Tongue” for everyday talk. When national literature began to assert itself, Bible translations followed in most places without much fuss. There were 19 translations into German in circulation before Luther’s version.
The King James Bible & the Douay Bible were produced at around the same time. the actual aims of the two translations were different. The King James was for public services in the vernacular, and even this Irish Catholic is stirred by the beauty of much of the language. The Douay on the other hand was a study Bible and adhered as closely as possible to the actual text of the original Latin Vulgate – with an eye over the shoulder to the Greek. Hence it is not as smoothly-flowing as the King james, but is more reliable as to meaning.

Please note that, although the King James bypassed the Vulgate and went back to what they thought was “the Greek original”, the actual manuscripts used were actually quite late – 9th -12th centuries – and followed the least reliable of the four main “textual families”. The Vulgate of S.Jerome, on the other hand, was taken direct from many very ancient manuscripts that are no longer in existence. The Catholic Church has therefore insisted that the Vulgate is itself on the level of a Primary Reference. The Protestant claim that their Greek-based source is superior does not therefore stand real scrutiny.

I personally find the (old) Jerusalem Bible immensely readable. But it does have one subtle drawback. Often the original text does have two or more possible alternative meanings. The JB (along with many 20th century translations) chooses just one meaning and then expresses that meaning very clearly. That sounds great, but it is actually excluding the other possibilities. We can therefore get the wrong idea after all of what that Scripture passage can really say.

My personal favourite is the Catholic edition of the RSV. It is seldom difficult to understand, and I feel I am on solid ground when I read it.
 
numealinesimpet,

**You wrote: ** *The King James Bible & the Douay Bible were produced at around the same time. the actual aims of the two translations were different. The King James was for public services in the vernacular, and even this Irish Catholic is stirred by the beauty of much of the language. The Douay on the other hand was a study Bible and adhered as closely as possible to the actual text of the original Latin Vulgate – with an eye over the shoulder to the Greek. Hence it is not as smoothly-flowing as the King james, but is more reliable as to meaning.

Please note that, although the King James bypassed the Vulgate and went back to what they thought was “the Greek original”, the actual manuscripts used were actually quite late – 9th -12th centuries – and followed the least reliable of the four main “textual families”. The Vulgate of S.Jerome, on the other hand, was taken direct from many very ancient manuscripts that are no longer in existence. The Catholic Church has therefore insisted that the Vulgate is itself on the level of a Primary Reference. The Protestant claim that their Greek-based source is superior does not therefore stand real scrutiny.*​

Excellent comments, and very Catholic ones, too! 👍 I would only add a few points to what you say by way of qualification.

The Greek text that underlies the Authorised “King James” Version (A.V.) New Testament (which has been reconstructed and published by the Trinitarian Bible Society) is almost identical to another essentially identical Textus Receptus Greek N.T. in the Complutensian Polygot Bible, a Catholic-sanctioned multilingual text that was completed before Erasmus’ first edition of his Textus Receptus Greek N.T. but was published a bit later than it. So, one should not make too much about this matter of the A.V.'s Greek too stridently. On the other hand, your praise of the Clementine Latin Vulgate is justified “in spades”! St. Jerome’s Greek text for his Latin N.T. may or may not have been superior for the reasons that you mention to any Greek text of the Renaissance and after, but the Vulgate’s Greek text underlay is far superior (as is that of the Catholic Complutensian Polygot and the Protestant Textus Receptus texts) to the mutilated Greek N.T. text, the so-called “Critical Text” in its various editions, that underlies most modern Bible versions and their Greek textual underlay.

The original Douay-Rheims (D.-R.) Bible was, as you state, very literal to the point at times of near unintelligibility, and, basically, was a sort of study text. However Challoner’s revision, the Douay-Rheims-Challoner (D.-R.-C.) Version is far superior to that, indeed rather close to the wording of the A.V. Bible, as Bp. Richard Challoner recast the Douay-Rheims text. The original D.-R. is the one that influenced to an extent the A.V.'s translators; then, later, the A.V. itself influenced the D.-R.-C. There was rather a lot of oecumenical (name removed by moderator)ut on both sides of the Protestant (Anglican) and Catholic divide in the making of the English Bible at the time of the extended Reformation period!

It is true that the A.V. Bible is the great biblical text in English literature. However, Challoner’s Bible approaches very nearly the A.V.'s literary level and is quite excellent for public reading in the liturgy, as the original D.-R. Bible was not so.

Jerry Parker
 
numealinesimpet,

**You wrote: ** *The King James Bible & the Douay Bible were produced at around the same time. the actual aims of the two translations were different. The King James was for public services in the vernacular, and even this Irish Catholic is stirred by the beauty of much of the language. The Douay on the other hand was a study Bible and adhered as closely as possible to the actual text of the original Latin Vulgate – with an eye over the shoulder to the Greek. Hence it is not as smoothly-flowing as the King james, but is more reliable as to meaning.

Please note that, although the King James bypassed the Vulgate and went back to what they thought was “the Greek original”, the actual manuscripts used were actually quite late – 9th -12th centuries – and followed the least reliable of the four main “textual families”. The Vulgate of S.Jerome, on the other hand, was taken direct from many very ancient manuscripts that are no longer in existence. The Catholic Church has therefore insisted that the Vulgate is itself on the level of a Primary Reference. The Protestant claim that their Greek-based source is superior does not therefore stand real scrutiny.*​

Excellent comments, and very Catholic ones, too! 👍 I would only add a few points to what you say by way of qualification.

The Greek text that underlies the Authorised “King James” Version (A.V.) New Testament (which has been reconstructed and published by the Trinitarian Bible Society) is almost identical to another essentially identical Textus Receptus Greek N.T. in the Complutensian Polygot Bible, a Catholic-sanctioned multilingual text that was completed before Erasmus’ first edition of his Textus Receptus Greek N.T. but was published a bit later than it. So, one should not make too much about this matter of the A.V.'s Greek too stridently. On the other hand, your praise of the Clementine Latin Vulgate is justified “in spades”! St. Jerome’s Greek text for his Latin N.T. may or may not have been superior for the reasons that you mention to any Greek text of the Renaissance and after, but the Vulgate’s Greek text underlay is far superior (as is that of the Catholic Complutensian Polygot and the Protestant Textus Receptus texts) to the mutilated Greek N.T. text, the so-called “Critical Text” in its various editions, that underlies most modern Bible versions and their Greek textual underlay.

The original Douay-Rheims (D.-R.) Bible was, as you state, very literal to the point at times of near unintelligibility, and, basically, was a sort of study text. However Challoner’s revision, the Douay-Rheims-Challoner (D.-R.-C.) Version is far superior to that, indeed rather close to the wording of the A.V. Bible, as Bp. Richard Challoner recast the Douay-Rheims text. The original D.-R. is the one that influenced to an extent the A.V.'s translators; then, later, the A.V. itself influenced the D.-R.-C. There was rather a lot of oecumenical (name removed by moderator)ut on both sides of the Protestant (Anglican) and Catholic divide in the making of the English Bible at the time of the extended Reformation period!

It is true that the A.V. Bible is the great biblical text in English literature. However, Challoner’s Bible approaches very nearly the A.V.'s literary level and is quite excellent for public reading in the liturgy, as the original D.-R. Bible was not so.

Jerry Parker
Thank you, Jerry. Yes, there was quite a bit of “borrowing of good ideas” on both sides, which nowadays we would call ‘plagarism’. I agree with you about the Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims version. The English language itself was being standardised in the process, of course, as some of the lofty thoughts of the Bible, not to mention vocabulary, were being expressed in print for the first time. I know that not all agree with this idea, but one has only to compare the far larger number of obsolete words and expressions in Shakespeare, which was written at about the same time, to see the point. I’ve heard also that the German language was standardised to Luther’s Northern German dialect by his translation.
 
A word about the five main “manuscript families” of the Bible. Not being at all a Biblical scholar, I got most of this from the very excellent* “Gospel Parallels: A Synopsis of the First Three Gospels”* Ed. B.H.Throckmorton Jr, ©1979, Thomas Nelson Publishers, ISBN 0-847-5150-8, & also from the Jerome Biblical Commentary (Old Edition, pre-1970). I highly recommend Throckmorton. Most Biblical Notes state something like “Other ancient authorities write…” Throckmorton tells you what they are, what date they appeared, and how they are inter-related.

In the days before printing and photocopying, when each manuscript was written by hand (though mass production was not unknown: a roomful of scribes could take down one copy each by dictation), any discrepancies in a copy would be passed down to all other manuscripts copied from the copy … each major centre would therefore tend to generate a “family” of manuscripts with the same set of discrepancies from the original.

By the way, surely the simplest of all arguments against “sola scriptura” as an alternative to “tradition” is that we have no original handwritten copies of any of the books of the Bible: we rely 100% on the integrity of the scribes who passed the extant copies down to us – dare I say, we rely on the tradition of the Church that we have the authentic version of the Bible? Yet small discrepancies there are. The actual number of manuscripts following a particular pattern is not the point: industrious scribes could easily generate large numbers of copies of a manuscript that was, unknown to them, not as faithful to the original as another manuscript that was copied only a few times.

The five main ‘familes’ are named by scholars:
(1) Alexandrian. This is believed to be closest to the lost originals.
It is difficult to be too dogmatic, as we have to guess the Greek behind the Latin of the written word, but Jerome’s Vulgate appears to have been mainly based on this family.

(2) **Byzantine, Antiochene **or Textus Receptus (Received Text). Originated in the late 3rd century & was adopted by the Byzantine world. It is the basis for almost all late Greek manuscripts. Throckmorton writes, “It is characterised by conflations (combinations of readings from other manuscripts) and revisions in the interest of smoothness and intelligibility.”

(3) Western Text. An ancient non-Byzantine Greek text. The so-called Old Latin (pre-Vulgate) versions are in this family. Throckmorton writes, “Marked by omissions and insertions sometimes the length of several verses, and by eccentric readings”. On the other hand, “The text originated in the middle of the Second Century, and so its readings cannot easily be dismissed.” A striking characteristic is a series of passages from the last three chapters of S. Luke that are absent from the Western family but found in all other manuscripts; does the Western preserve an actual earlier edition of Luke?

I think that it is the Western family that has a different version of Acts that is almost 1/3 longer than that accepted by all modern versions. I saw the two versions side by side many years ago in a bookshop. Nearly all the differences came down to a more compact phrasing of the same thing. I must admit it looked exactly like how you would edit your own work if you were told to shorten it. I see no reason why it could not have been done by Luke himself, going over an older manuscript and improving it – but after copies of the older version were already in circulation.

(4) Syriac. Closely associated with the Western text, but with affinities to the Alexandrian. It became the official version of the Syriac Church.

(5) Caesarean. Lies between the Alexandrian and Western. As early as the Alexandrian, but lacking what Throckmorton calls the “aberrations” of the Western.

None of the earliest manuscripts contain the “doxology” after The Lord’s Prayer: “for thine is the Kingdom” etc.
 
nimealinesimpet,

**You wrote: ** *Yes, there was quite a bit of “borrowing of good ideas” on both sides, which nowadays we would call ‘plagarism’. I agree with you about the Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims version. The English language itself was being standardised in the process, of course, as some of the lofty thoughts of the Bible, not to mention vocabulary, were being expressed in print for the first time. I know that not all agree with this idea, but one has only to compare the far larger number of obsolete words and expressions in Shakespeare, which was written at about the same time, to see the point. I’ve heard also that the German language was standardised to Luther’s Northern German dialect by his translation. *​

Excellent comments, indeed (again!). 😃 I am not sure that the English Bible, from Tyndale, Coverdale, Geneva Bible, original Douay-Rheims, to Authorised “King James” Version (A.V.) had quite the same impact on English standardisation as Luther’s Bible did on German, but it must have had a lot of clout, especially when one realises how much the Bible, at least among Anglicans and other Protestants, was the primary source used, as a “reader” educationally, to teach children how to read. Honest studies have shown that the A.V. even today, despite some passing archaisms here and there (the pronouns being easily understood), requires an education of between 4th grade to 6th grade to read readily. The fourth grade assessment wisely excludes the A.V.'s old-fashioned punctuation from unduly affecting tests that computers undertake.

The Challoner Bible surely requires no more sophistication to read easily, probably less, since Challoner’s 18th century version of the Douay-Rheims Bible, in terms of vocabulary, is rather more modern than the A.V.

Compared to any of these early Bibles, Shakespeare’s English is far more demanding, with its very large, and partly more obsolete, vocabulary.

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
numealinesimpet,

**You wrote: ** *The five main ‘familes’ [of Greek New Testament manuscripts] are named by scholars:

(1) Alexandrian. This is believed to be closest to the lost originals.
It is difficult to be too dogmatic, as we have to guess the Greek behind the Latin of the written word, but Jerome’s Vulgate appears to have been mainly based on this family.

(2) Byzantine, Antiochene or Textus Receptus (Received Text). Originated in the late 3rd century & was adopted by the Byzantine world. It is the basis for almost all late Greek manuscripts. Throckmorton writes, “It is characterised by conflations (combinations of readings from other manuscripts) and revisions in the interest of smoothness and intelligibility.”

(3) Western Text. An ancient non-Byzantine Greek text. The so-called Old Latin (pre-Vulgate) versions are in this family. Throckmorton writes, “Marked by omissions and insertions sometimes the length of several verses, and by eccentric readings”. On the other hand, “The text originated in the middle of the Second Century, and so its readings cannot easily be dismissed.” A striking characteristic is a series of passages from the last three chapters of S. Luke that are absent from the Western family but found in all other manuscripts; does the Western preserve an actual earlier edition of Luke?

I think that it is the Western family that has a different version of Acts that is almost 1/3 longer than that accepted by all modern versions. I saw the two versions side by side many years ago in a bookshop. Nearly all the differences came down to a more compact phrasing of the same thing. I must admit it looked exactly like how you would edit your own work if you were told to shorten it. I see no reason why it could not have been done by Luke himself, going over an older manuscript and improving it – but after copies of the older version were already in circulation.

(4) Syriac. Closely associated with the Western text, but with affinities to the Alexandrian. It became the official version of the Syriac Church.

(5) Caesarean. Lies between the Alexandrian and Western. As early as the Alexandrian, but lacking what Throckmorton calls the “aberrations” of the Western.

None of the earliest manuscripts contain the “doxology” after The Lord’s Prayer: “for thine is the Kingdom” etc. *​

This kind of classification, by presumed types and localities, of New Testament (N.T.) manuscripts (MSS.) needs to be rethought. The theory especially derives from the musings of Westcott and Hort. Wilbur Norman Pickering, however, nicely makes mincemeat of the theory, most notably in his fine study, The Identity of the New Testament Text, as do a growing number of other scholars whom the proponents of the “Critical Text” dismiss far too loftily or simply ignore. Too many supposed text types from particular regions just seem to mix too peculiarly to make such pronouncements that there such defined classes really exist at all. Also, in the case of some text “types” the paltry number of surviving MSS. which supposedly belong to some of the text types is simply too limited to make such sweeping conclusions. Anyway, Pickering, like other “revisionists” among textual critics, has a lot more to state about all this in his excellent writings, which I would commend to you.

At any rate, these theories have been put forward mainly to justify the supposed superiority of the “Critical Text” of the N.T. in its various manifestations, and often to debunk the Clementine Latin Vulgate Bible and/or to defame the sturdy viability of the Byzantine Text. Both of these are ecclesiastical texts, the former of the Catholic Church, the latter of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and neither is so faulty as Western Protestant (and now also Catholic) scholars would have us to believe. As the saying goes about not “jumping to conclusions” too quickly, “keep the powder dry!”

Pax, Jerry Parker
 
numealinesimpet,

**You wrote: ** *The five main ‘familes’ [of Greek New Testament manuscripts] are named by scholars:

(1) Alexandrian. This is believed to be closest to the lost originals.
It is difficult to be too dogmatic, as we have to guess the Greek behind the Latin of the written word, but Jerome’s Vulgate appears to have been mainly based on this family.

(2) Byzantine, Antiochene or Textus Receptus (Received Text). Originated in the late 3rd century & was adopted by the Byzantine world. It is the basis for almost all late Greek manuscripts. Throckmorton writes, “It is characterised by conflations (combinations of readings from other manuscripts) and revisions in the interest of smoothness and intelligibility.”

(3) Western Text. An ancient non-Byzantine Greek text. The so-called Old Latin (pre-Vulgate) versions are in this family. Throckmorton writes, “Marked by omissions and insertions sometimes the length of several verses, and by eccentric readings”. On the other hand, “The text originated in the middle of the Second Century, and so its readings cannot easily be dismissed.” A striking characteristic is a series of passages from the last three chapters of S. Luke that are absent from the Western family but found in all other manuscripts; does the Western preserve an actual earlier edition of Luke?

I think that it is the Western family that has a different version of Acts that is almost 1/3 longer than that accepted by all modern versions. I saw the two versions side by side many years ago in a bookshop. Nearly all the differences came down to a more compact phrasing of the same thing. I must admit it looked exactly like how you would edit your own work if you were told to shorten it. I see no reason why it could not have been done by Luke himself, going over an older manuscript and improving it – but after copies of the older version were already in circulation.

(4) Syriac. Closely associated with the Western text, but with affinities to the Alexandrian. It became the official version of the Syriac Church.

(5) Caesarean. Lies between the Alexandrian and Western. As early as the Alexandrian, but lacking what Throckmorton calls the “aberrations” of the Western.

None of the earliest manuscripts contain the “doxology” after The Lord’s Prayer: “for thine is the Kingdom” etc. *​

This kind of classification, by presumed types and localities, of New Testament (N.T.) manuscripts (MSS.) needs to be rethought. The theory especially derives from the musings of Westcott and Hort. Wilbur Norman Pickering, however, nicely makes mincemeat of the theory, most notably in his fine study, The Identity of the New Testament Text, as do a growing number of other scholars whom the proponents of the “Critical Text” dismiss far too loftily or simply ignore. Too many supposed text types from particular regions just seem to mix too peculiarly to make such pronouncements that there such defined classes really exist at all. Also, in the case of some text “types” the paltry number of surviving MSS. which supposedly belong to some of the text types is simply too limited to make such sweeping conclusions. Anyway, Pickering, like other “revisionists” among textual critics, has a lot more to state about all this in his excellent writings, which I would commend to you.

At any rate, these theories have been put forward mainly to justify the supposed superiority of the “Critical Text” of the N.T. in its various manifestations, and often to debunk the Clementine Latin Vulgate Bible and/or to defame the sturdy viability of the Byzantine Text. Both of these are ecclesiastical texts, the former of the Catholic Church, the latter of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and neither is so faulty as Western Protestant (and now also Catholic) scholars would have us to believe. As the saying goes about not “jumping to conclusions” too quickly, “keep the powder dry!”

Pax, Jerry Parker
Aha! Very enlightening, Jerry! And with the ring of truth! I am not a professional University man, but I have seen enough of academia to know how academic reputations can be built on an extremely flimsy basis that nevertheless becomes the ‘established orthodoxy’ until a new generation comes along with their own careers to build on the debunking of the previous…

I know that the Book of Kells – our national treasure from the 8th century – has a text that cannot be slotted into the schemes I described from Throckmorton.

The 19th century habit of finding ‘underlying sources’ for Biblical writings also seems to be mostly fantasy. But maybe we should start a whole new thread on this topic.👍
 
numealinesimpet,

**You wrote **(regarding “text types” of ancient N.T. MSS.): * Aha! Very enlightening, Jerry! And with the ring of truth! I am not a professional University man, but I have seen enough of academia to know how academic reputations can be built on an extremely flimsy basis that nevertheless becomes the ‘established orthodoxy’ until a new generation comes along with their own careers to build on the debunking of the previous…

I know that the Book of Kells – our national treasure from the 8th century – has a text that cannot be slotted into the schemes I described from Throckmorton.

The 19th century habit of finding ‘underlying sources’ for Biblical writings also seems to be mostly fantasy. But maybe we should start a whole new thread on this topic. *​

Well, you “hit the nail on the head” about the academnic entrenchment of the “Critical Text” mentality. 😉 (I was long in academia myself, and your impression of it is, for the most part, very apt.) These ideas are quite old now, going back into the 19th century (and before Westcott and Hort themselves), even the 18th century. However, the ideas remain the same; nothing soothes academics like an “academic orthodoxy”, since it lets them off the hook on really coming to grips with the essential questions. What is fresh and vigourous is the new “Majority Text” movement, which neither gets bogged down in defending the Textus Receptus per se, nor accedes to the “Critical Text” partisan’s dross and moss covered tired, endlessly recycled old ideas.

There is no need to start a new thread (though go ahead if you are so inclined). These matters have arisen in almost every Bible-related C.A. forum that has started, to one extent or another. It really is the old ho-hum!

Jerry Parker
 
In the USA, we use the Grail Psalter in the Liturgy of the Hours. The NAB (1970) version of the Psalms are used in the Mass (because they do not use inclusive language as do the 1991 version of the NAB Psalms). The english version of the Roman Missal in the USA is being revised and next year we will begin using a new revised version of the Grail Psalms in the MASS, instead of the old NAB ones.
By chance, do you know what date it will be implemented? My guess is after Easter Vigil…
 
The thing I don’t like about the NJB is that it has inclusive language.
Sorry if I seem terribly ignorant but what exactly do you mean by inclusive language? To me that phrase refers to political correctness (isn’t that something we strive for in the “real” world?) but it seems to mean something else (or more) here. 🤷
 
Sorry if I seem terribly ignorant but what exactly do you mean by inclusive language? To me that phrase refers to political correctness (isn’t that something we strive for in the “real” world?) but it seems to mean something else (or more) here. 🤷
I’m afraid it does mean that. There would be a spectrum of “correctness” ranging from {“correcting” Ps 1 “Happy indeed is the man …” to “Happy indeed is the one …”} to {“correcting” “Our Father who are in Heaven” to “Our Parent who art in Heaven”}.

I think Political correctness is a mental aberration. and it was predicted as early ago as the 1920s by Hilaire Belloc & possibley GKCesterton. They said that, once the “Common Consensus” based upon the Ten Commandments and the whole moral tradition of Christendom was finally abandoned (the trend was already strongly there), people would reach a stage where the criterion of acceptability would be whether anyone was offended, for whatever reson … and so people would be afraid to say anything.

As for translation, this is actually a far more subtle problem than meets the eye. It has been said that translation is a “polite fiction” that the person is actually speaking our own language. Now that is difficult enough with two 21st Century languages. Even there, words have different connotations, there are unspoken conventions and underlying assumptions, that are different in different cultures. Once I picked up a book with some such title as “Teach Yourself Indonesian”. They pointed out that in countries where Indonesian is widely spoken, old people are given huge respect. Also, in that beardless nation, facial hair is in very great esteem. So there is an expression ‘something like’ , Bala tombok namu which is a common phrase expressing great respect and esteem, but which translates literally as ‘hairy old man’.

When translating from an ancient remote culture, what do we aim at? Do we go for a literal translation? Or do we try to reconstruct what he would have said if he were speaking 21st century English? The problem is, he couldn’t have used our highly-sophisticated language in the state of his culture’s development.
I’m told that Hebrew-speaking Jews are amused at our tranlation of the psalms. One line, “Praise God, praise him O my soul” actually says “praise Him O my liver”. The problem is, we mean the organ next to the duodenum and nothing else, but the ancient Hebrew automatically understood it to mean “my inmost being”. See the point?

So, I do have some sympathy for a translation that is less than slavishly literal.

That is why (to open another can of worms) the Catholic Church does not insist that the 7 “days” of Creation must have meant 7 periods of 24 hours. c.f. catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301bt.asp
or
tradwiki.com/w/index.php/Creation%2C_Evolution_and_Intelligent_Design
 
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