So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

[PRmerger]

It was you who asked me that ,and it wasn’t,t in scripture and was man made for duping

Again, you seem to be operating under the misapprehension that Catholics use the Bible Alone as the source for their beliefs.

Our Source is Christ and His Body, the Catholic Church.

Thus, we don’t need to find, “The universe is changed forever when one is baptized” in the Bible.

But whenever you proclaim something, since you do not subscribe to Sacred Tradition as a channel of God’s Word, YOU need to find everything you proclaim in the Bible.

Except, most of what you are claiming here has no source in the Bible. Or is an erroneous interpretation of Bible–something you’ve heard from a fallible pastor. As such, it is only a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes but verse 30 says he who believes has eternal life. I would think the belief came first, then one was baptized. That is one would listen to Jesus speak, then hearers who believed in his message were then baptized. Again, can an unregenerated spirit believe ?

Are you familiar with Cornelius in the New Testament, benhur?

Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Since Cornelius had not yet heard the Gospel, how is it that he feared God, gave alms generously, and prayed continually?

 

[benhur]

Are you familiar with Cornelius in the New Testament, benhur?

Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Since Cornelius had not yet heard the Gospel, how is it that he feared God, gave alms generously, and prayed continually?

Have you heard of a king who feared God whilst Abraham was passing thru ? How about Rahab ? And the unnamed centurion who had the greatest faith in all of Israel for his daughters health ? Do you think fear of God and generous alms giving and continuous prayer began at Pentecost? The good news began at the garden of Eden when God covered their transgression and promised a final resolution…Cornelius bears out the truth of my post. He believed then was baptized. He was regenerated, had a true spirit before God,and consequently and sequentially was then baptized. Baptism did not grant him faith nor did it then give him a heart to generously give alms and with continual prayer. he had all that before baptism. He did not do that in the flesh. He did not do that with a dead spirit .

 

[PRmerger]

Have you heard of a king who feared God whilst Abraham was passing thru ? How about Rahab ? And the unnamed centurion who had the greatest faith in all of Israel for his daughters health ? Do you think fear of God and generous alms giving and continuous prayer began at Pentecost? The good news began at the garden of Eden when God covered their transgression and promised a final resolution…Cornelius bears out the truth of my post. He believed then was baptized.

Amen! Very Catholic, this!

He was regenerated

When did this occur, in your estimation? At his baptism? If that is your belief, then you also get a for being very Catholic!

 

[stewstew03]

Yes but verse 30 says he who believes has eternal life. I would think the belief came first, then one was baptized. That is one would listen to Jesus speak, then hearers who believed in his message were then baptized. Again, can an unregenerated spirit believe ?

I think you mean verse 36. In any event, this sounds like “benhur Tradition”:

I would think the belief came first, then one was baptized.

Which also sounds like someone has to do something, namely, believe, beforehe or she is regenerated. That doesn’t sounds like grace to me. No, grace sounds like this:

“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” --Titus 3:5-7

Is it your belief that God cannot regenerate our souls unless we do something to earn it?

 

[benhur]

I think you mean verse 36. In any event, this sounds like “benhur Tradition”:

Which also sounds like someone has to do something, namely, believe, beforehe or she is regenerated. That doesn’t sounds like grace to me. No, grace sounds like this:

“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” --Titus 3:5-7

Is it your belief that God cannot regenerate our souls unless we do something to earn it?

Yes vs 36 thanks…the baptism they spoke of is for purification reasons- the only kind Jews did even for utensils as opposed to for regeneration or for bestowing of the spirit/new birth…I do not know of anyone who does not believe that baptism is at least a declaration of saving faith,at least, and yes it is a work, but not of the believer, but this is the works of God ,that we believe on whom He has sent. Is that a command to us or is that what He makes happen in us or both…you know very well faith/ belief is a gift from God and to espouse me or it as suggesting a work is like splashing water on a ducks back.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes vs 36 thanks…the baptism they spoke of is for purification reasons- the only kind Jews did even for utensils as opposed to for regeneration or for bestowing of the spirit/new birth…

Source for this in Scripture, please! Book, chapter and verse.

 

[benhur]

Amen! Very Catholic, this!

When did this occur, in your estimation? At his baptism? If that is your belief, then you also get a for being very Catholic!

No. Can you have saving belief(for even the devil believes, but not savingly), without regeneration? Can the flesh, the carnal man believe ?

 

[PRmerger]

No. Can you have saving belief(for even the devil believes, but not savingly), without regeneration?

Clearly, Cornelius did.

 

[benhur]

Source for this in Scripture, please! Book, chapter and verse.

I think vs 30 was it john ch. 3 ? Says the baptists disciples spoke about the apostles baptism and " purification" at least in the kjv,perhaps you can google baptism in OT for the utensils part don,t have my bible dictionary handy.

 

[benhur]

Clearly, Cornelius did.

So his flesh feared god and gave generous alms and prayed incessantly and believed Jesus was the messiah and spoke in tongues or had the gift of the spirit fall upon him as the apostles on Pentecost…all in the flesh before regeneration of his dead spirit inherited from the fall …???

 

[PRmerger]

I think vs 30 was it john ch. 3 ? Says the baptists disciples spoke about the apostles baptism and " purification" at least in the kjv,perhaps you can google baptism in OT for the utensils part don,t have my bible dictionary handy.

John 3:30?

I don’t think so.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:30[/BIBLEDRB]

You don’t have your Bible dictionary handy, but surely you have your Bible handy, yes?

What verse is it again that says that baptism is not “for regeneration or for bestowing of the spirit/new birth”?

 

[PRmerger]

So his flesh feared god and gave generous alms and prayed incessantly and believed Jesus was the messiah and spoke in tongues or had the gift of the spirit fall upon him as the apostles on Pentecost…all in the flesh before regeneration of his dead spirit inherited from the fall …???

Believed in Jesus, benhur? Before he heard the gospel?

How did he do this?

Did you see what you just did? You added to the Bible right there!

 

[stewstew03]

Yes vs 36 thanks…the baptism they spoke of is for purification reasons- the only kind Jews did even for utensils as opposed to for regeneration or for bestowing of the spirit/new birth…

I’m confused – are you saying verse 36 refers to a Jewish ritual?

I do not know of anyone who does not believe that baptism is at least a declaration of saving faith,at least, and yes it is a work, but not of the believer, but this is the works of God ,that we believe on whom He has sent…

Can you point to the verse that says God does not or cannot dispense his grace to infants? Or the mentally infirm? You seem to limit God’s grace to human action.

 

[ltwin]

Nope! Because in order for your position to hold more validity, as stated, once again, early church writings outside the NT would mention it as the “norm” for baptism. Do you possess writings outside the NT supporting your position as the ONLY standard? And again, it is not assuming every time a NT writer mentions households infants were NOT included. Your position is basically affirming it as a fact that infants were excluded. And I’ll say it again:

Do you have sources outside the NT stating infants and young children were NOT part of the household?

Do you have sources showing a young child being baptized ONLY after he believed?

I don’t need sources that say infants were not part of Jewish households because that is not what I’m arguing. No one is arguing that infants were not part of households. What I am arguing is that given the context of the passages in question, it is a safe assumption that infants were not being preached to or baptized. The passages are evangelistic in tone. They are accounts of households being preached to and then responding with conversion. Infants would be part of the household, but they would not be the ones being preached to and converted.

It would be like saying, “My family votes Republican.” If I say that, it could mean that 2 year olds in my family vote for Republican political candidates, but I most likely am not referring to babies voting in elections because no 2 year old is politically active. In the same way, infants are not capable of understanding the gospel, responding in faith and making the conscious decision to be baptized and take on the commitments inherent in baptism.

And like I said, you got an example anywhere where a young child was baptized ONLY after he or she believed?

Well, I certainly don’t have an example in Scripture where a child was baptized when they were too young to believe. Later on, at least one prominent Christian figure, Tertullian, was not in favor of infant baptism. That is an indication that not every early Christian was unanimous on the issue.

 

[PRmerger]

No one is arguing that infants were not part of households. What I am arguing is that given the context of the passages in question, it is a safe assumption that infants were not being preached to or baptized.

No one is arguing either that infants were being preached to, so it’s curious for you to mention that.

The passages are evangelistic in tone. They are accounts of households being preached to and then responding with conversion. Infants would be part of the household, but they would not be the ones being preached to and converted.

Of course.

It would be like saying, “My family votes Republican.” If I say that, it could mean that 2 year olds in my family vote for Republican political candidates, but I most likely am not referring to babies voting in elections because no 2 year old is politically active. In the same way, infants are not capable of understanding the gospel, responding in faith and making the conscious decision to be baptized and take on the commitments inherent in baptism.

Actually, what would be analogous would be: My family is Jewish. And what that means is the babies (male) are part of the covenant, made visible via circumcision.

Well, I certainly don’t have an example in Scripture where a child was baptized when they were too young to believe. Later on, at least one prominent Christian figure, Tertullian, was not in favor of infant baptism. That is an indication that not every early Christian was unanimous on the issue.

But you do have are examplex of people being healed because of* someone else’s *faith.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 5:19[/BIBLEDRB]

And that, of course, is what happens in infant baptism.

 

[ltwin]

---

Itwin,
First,I wish to compliment you on your style of dialogue. I always appreciate your posts.

Thank you. I appreciate your posts as well. It’s always interesting to read about the Lutheran perspective and you articulate it well.

As for the bolded, I would disagree that baptized infants are not believers. From the Lutheran POV, Baptism is the washing of regeneration, which provides forgiveness of sins, and brings the baptized into lovingcare of the Father. From the LCMS website:

The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). Jesus Himself
commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt 28:19-
20).

I agree that faith comes by hearing. I also agree that baptism is a command and also that it is inseparable from the proclamation of the Word.

Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s
Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a
person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal 3:26-27; Rom 6:1-4; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor.
12:13).

I have no problem saying that baptism is a means of grace, if means of grace is defined as “any activities within the fellowship of the church that God uses to give more grace to Christians.” Preaching/teaching the Word, the Lord’s Supper, prayer, worship, spiritual gifts, fellowship, evangelism, personal ministry, and even ecclesiastical discipline are all means of grace.

I don’t believe that baptism itself creates faith in the believer (faith is a gift from God, which comes by hearing the Word, as Romans 10 makes clear). Baptism can, I believe, accompany faith and strengthen one’s faith.

Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and
“regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt 28:18-20), or it will die.

Matthew 18:6 doesn’t actually indicate infants, though. The text says child/children.

John 3:5-7 on its face suggests strong evidence for regenerative baptism. Yet, this verse can be interpreted in other ways. Jesus could be using water as a symbol for the Holy Spirit, such as in John 7:38-39 where Jesus said, “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive.” In fact, the word “and” (Greek kai) in “water and the Spirit” can be translated as “even,” “namely,” or “that is.” So, Jesus could be saying “unless one is born of water, that is, the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Titus 3:5-6 speaks of “the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.” In a similar passage, Ephesians 5:26 states, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.” It is the Word of God that washes clean, not physical water.

The interpretation of Acts 2:38-39 and 2 Timothy 3:15 is interesting, but it seems to me those verses don’t really apply to the matter of infant baptism. Yes, the promise of the Father is for us, our children, and for all who are far off if they repent of their sins and are baptized. Logically, that means that we, our children, and all those who are far off need to repent first and then be baptized.

The verse in 2 Timothy, honestly, strikes me as a big stretch. Paul is referring to Timothy being taught and exposed to the Scriptures from an early age, but there is not indication that he believed in infancy. He clearly learned the truth as he grew in childhood. I grew up in a Christian home and was “acquainted with the sacred writings” from childhood, but it didn’t require infant baptism for that to happen.

Luke 1:15 indeed provides Scriptural proof that infants can be regenerated and filled with the Spirit even before birth. But this has nothing to do with infant baptism. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit before it was physically possible to even baptize him.

I agree that Scripture is clear that God is able to save infants in an unusual way apart from hearing and understanding the Gospel. Yet, it’s important to note that in every case in Scripture where this happens, this regeneration occurs without the aid of baptism. It is always the direct work of the Holy Spirit.

Infant baptism and faith are, therefore, directly connected.

Jon

Jon, thanks for giving a Scriptural defense from a Lutheran interpretation. I’m still not convinced. I’m not really disturbed by Christians who do baptize their infant children (to me, it has the same effect as dedicating a child to the Lord), but I am disturbed with the implication that children who die in infancy are thought to be Christians or not solely on the basis of an action taken or not taken by their parents.

 

[ltwin]

No one is arguing either that infants were being preached to, so it’s curious for you to mention that.

And yet that is how the “households” ended up being baptized.

Actually, what would be analogous would be: My family is Jewish. And what that means is the babies (male) are part of the covenant, made visible via circumcision.

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. *For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. *His praise is not from man but from God.

(Romans 2:25-29)

But you do have are examplex of people being healed because of* someone else’s *faith.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 5:19[/BIBLEDRB]

And that, of course, is what happens in infant baptism.

Yes, believers can intercede on behalf of others. Parents can intercede on behalf of children. The Bible is full of examples of God saving the children of believers because of the faith of the parents. Yet, this principle embedded in Scripture does not require or necessitate that parents engage in infant baptism.

 

[PRmerger]

but I am disturbed with the implication that children who die in infancy are thought to be Christians or not solely on the basis of an action taken or not taken by their parents.

I am confused by this sentiment.

Is it not true that this would also apply to any family regardless of their view on infant baptism?

Isn’t the child considered to be a Christian or not solely on the basis of an action taken or not taken by their parents?

 

[ltwin]

I am confused by this sentiment.

Is it not true that this would also apply to any family regardless of their view on infant baptism?

Isn’t the child considered to be a Christian or not solely on the basis of an action taken or not taken by their parents?

No. God has no grandchildren. By this I mean, the New Testament Church is never presented as a “covenant community” of believers and their unbelieving children and other relatives. The only covenant community is the church itself, the assembly of the redeemed and those called out of the world and consecrated to God.