So I'm curious some denominations teach that "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" and you will be saved?

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If Paul is so clear in Romans regarding salvation by faith alone, what do you make of Romans 2:5-8?

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

(Romans 2:5-8 NABRE)

It would seem to me that that passage poses quite a stumbling block to the doctrine of sola fide.
I would suggest that you spend time studying the entire first 8 chapters of Romans to put this verse in context. Chery picking verses out of context can be very convincing but at the same time misleading. If after doing this you choose to believe what you believe I totally respect this.

Ed
 
Hi,

I’ve read through the CCC a few times as well as a fair amount of books written by Catholics on Catholicism as well as 6 months of RCIA so I have a decent understanding of CC teaching on justification. Don’t feel the need to cite anything though…just expressing my beliefs.

Ed
When you say “Catholics believe X” you need to cite a source. Or, just qualify your statement with – “I think Catholics believe X, but it’s only my opinion.”

Would you like to retract the assertion that we, as Catholics, believe we contribute to our justification? You certainly should know better if you’ve read the CCC a few times, and sat through RCIA for six months.
 
When you say “Catholics believe X” you need to cite a source. Or, just qualify your statement with – “I think Catholics believe X, but it’s only my opinion.”

Would you like to retract the assertion that we, as Catholics, believe we contribute to our justification? You certainly should know better if you’ve read the CCC a few times, and sat through RCIA for six months.
That’s fair enough. It is my opinion that that the CC puts a pretty elaborate and sophisticated spin on the concept of works and I do understand what the Church is teaching and admit that it is even very reasonable and convincing but it my opinion it that I stand by what I said earlier and works is works no matter how good the spin you put on it. Just my opinion.
 
That’s fair enough. It is my opinion that that the CC puts a pretty elaborate and sophisticated spin on the concept of works and I do understand what the Church is teaching and admit that it is even very reasonable and convincing but it my opinion it that I stand by what I said earlier and works is works no matter how good the spin you put on it. Just my opinion.
Of coarse it’s completely fair that Catholics are free to state whatever they believe Evangelicals believe with no qualifiers, citing, etc.

Ed
 
Of coarse it’s completely fair that Catholics are free to state whatever they believe Evangelicals believe with no qualifiers, citing, etc.

Ed
I wish there was a catechism of evangelical church. There’s not though and even evangelicals on this board argue about what evangelical doctrine is!

Alas it is unknowable except by opinions of people who claim to it’s adherence!
 
That’s fair enough. It is my opinion that that the CC puts a pretty elaborate and sophisticated spin on the concept of works and I do understand what the Church is teaching and admit that it is even very reasonable and convincing but it my opinion it that I stand by what I said earlier and works is works no matter how good the spin you put on it. Just my opinion.
Great - it’s your opinion. Here is what the Church teaches:
Our **justification **comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the **free **and **undeserved **help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. --CCC 1996
Now, what part of this leads you to draw the erroneous conclusion that the Church teaches justification must be earned?

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I wish there was a catechism of evangelical church. There’s not though and even evangelicals on this board argue about what evangelical doctrine is!

Alas it is unknowable except by opinions of people who claim to it’s adherence!
Amen.
 
I wish there was a catechism of evangelical church. There’s not though and even evangelicals on this board argue about what evangelical doctrine is!
Apples and oranges. Evangelicalism is not a church. Evangelicalism designates “a set of convictions, practices, habits and oppositions” in the words of evangelical historian Mark A. Noll. It is essentially Protestant Christianity characterized by the non-negotiable belief in the need for conscious conversion and the necessity of a life of active holiness, as well as a flexibility when it comes to church forms and religious traditions.
Alas it is unknowable except by opinions of people who claim to it’s adherence!
That’s because there are no “mere evangelicals” but rather evangelical Anglicans, evangelical Presbyterians, evangelical Quakers, etc.
 
Apples and oranges. Evangelicalism is not a church. Evangelicalism designates “a set of convictions, practices, habits and oppositions” in the words of evangelical historian Mark A. Noll. It is essentially Protestant Christianity characterized by the non-negotiable belief in the need for conscious conversion and the necessity of a life of active holiness, as well as a flexibility when it comes to church forms and religious traditions.

That’s because there are no “mere evangelicals” but rather evangelical Anglicans, evangelical Presbyterians, evangelical Quakers, etc.
Well stated, ltwin. I would only add that a catechism on the order of the CCC is unnecessary, because Protestant churches on the whole don’t have centuries of add ons and accretions to Scripture. Every church does have a statement of faith (the “non-negotiables”) and often a statement of “distinctives” about the particular church or denomination.

I know Catholics don’t like hearing the reality, but I’ll say it here again: every Protestant church denomination I’ve encountered within the general “evangelical” fold, agrees on the non-negotiables, with rare exceptions. Even a cursory examination of the statements of faith of one’s local churches will bear this out.
 
Hi,

I’ve read through the CCC a few times as well as a fair amount of books written by Catholics on Catholicism as well as 6 months of RCIA so I have a decent understanding of CC teaching on justification. Don’t feel the need to cite anything though…just expressing my beliefs.

Ed
I. Justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism: 34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.** 35**

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:** 36**

(God) gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature… For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized. 37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.** 39**

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: 40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight. 42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” 44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification… But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. 45

(34 Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4) (35 Rom 6:8-11) (36 Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1 4) (37 St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1, 24: PG 26, 585 and 588) (38 Mt 4:17) (39 Council of Trent [1547]: DS 1528) (40 Cf. Council of Trent [1547]: DS 1529) (41 Rom 3:21-26) (42 Council of Trent [1547]: DS 1525) (43 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 72, 3: PL 35, 1823) (44 Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16) (45 Rom 6:19, 22)

Emphasis mine.

Now, we have the rest of the story.
 
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I would suggest that you spend time studying the entire first 8 chapters of Romans to put this verse in context. Chery picking verses out of context can be very convincing but at the same time misleading. If after doing this you choose to believe what you believe I totally respect this.

Ed
“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or *works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; *but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” Letter from church at Rome to the church at Corinth ch 32
 
I. Justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism: 34
(1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.** 39**
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: 40

Now, we have the rest of the story.
Yes but you tie justification to a rite, to a church event (someone must baptize you). I understand the few scriptures that may suggest this but also understand the others that say otherwise. You can not explain it by saying well baptism is both a work and not a work, that God really does it, hence it is not included as a work. What ? Any good work I would think qualifies for that definition then for “it is Christ that liveth in me” that now exists and walks and talks etc… Can’t be both a work and a non work… Paul and the letter of Clement suggest very strongly that by works (not law stuff) of our righteousness, even in Christ , do not justify us. Hence many give up the mental gymnastics and rest on the Word plainly that by faith we are justified, and anything else is just proof of that . Do I really need to put in the word "alone’’ ?
 
Well stated, ltwin. I would only add that a catechism on the order of the CCC is unnecessary, because Protestant churches on the whole don’t have centuries of add ons and accretions to Scripture. Every church does have a statement of faith (the “non-negotiables”) and often a statement of “distinctives” about the particular church or denomination.

I know Catholics don’t like hearing the reality, but I’ll say it here again: every Protestant church denomination I’ve encountered within the general “evangelical” fold, agrees on the non-negotiables, with rare exceptions. Even a cursory examination of the statements of faith of one’s local churches will bear this out.
This is absolute nonsense. "Apples and oranges ".

As a longtime evangelical I will staunchly call it out.

Here is the true comparison.

Evangelical “non negotiables/statement of faith” = Catholic Nicene Creed

Catholic Catechism unpacks the creed among other things. The same is done in every evangelical church at the prerogative of the pastor and the writings of modern authors.

If I ask what Christian marriage is I can go solicit the opinions of some pastors in evangelicalism or I can go read the paragraphs declaring what it is in the Catholic Catechism

If you are thinking every evangelical church holds no belief outside it’s statement of faith you are dead wrong. It may not be written down but it is there. In the sermons, in the elder boards opinions, in the writings if it’s "heroes " etc…

The difference is, you can pick the flavor that best suits you because it is all opinion based. And if you can’t find your flavor you can make your own. All the flavors are in the “ice cream store” called evangelicalism, yet none of them are similar.

In Catholicism there is the store that sells Christ’s ice cream. We offer different toppings but the flavor is the same.
 
Yes but you tie justification to a rite, to a church event (someone must baptize you). I understand the few scriptures that may suggest this but also understand the others that say otherwise. You can not explain it by saying well baptism is both a work and not a work, that God really does it, hence it is not included as a work. What ? Any good work I would think qualifies for that definition then for “it is Christ that liveth in me” that now exists and walks and talks etc… Can’t be both a work and a non work… Paul and the letter of Clement suggest very strongly that by works (not law stuff) of our righteousness, even in Christ , do not justify us. Hence many give up the mental gymnastics and rest on the Word plainly that by faith we are justified, and anything else is just proof of that . Do I really need to put in the word "alone’’ ?
Baptism is not a work instituted by any man. It was instituted by God before Jesus ever uttered a single word of the Gospel. You can choose to ignore that fact, but it doesn’t change the fact that even Jesus humbly subjected Himself to Baptism, in submission to the Will of His Father. He most certainly didn’t need to be washed of His sins. But, there had to be a very important reason for Him to do that, and I don’t mean that He just did it to show obedience to His Father. There was much more to it than that. Everything that Jesus did was to teach us all an important lesson. So, what was that lesson, if not that it really is necessary for our salvation?

I think it’s presumptuous for any of us to believe that Jesus didn’t really expect us to follow any defined rules. God always gives us rules to follow, otherwise we are much more inclined to follow our own, which are very far from perfect and often lead us astray. I believe Jesus most certainly did give us His rules/laws to follow. Didn’t He say, “Follow me.”, many times? How can we know how to follow Him the way He wants us to, if there are no rules? We could say that all we have to do is follow the Bible, but most people find it hard to agree on how to interpret even the most obvious verses, so how are we supposed to know if what we believe is right? So, we are also given free will to not believe Jesus gave us any kind of laws, and ignore what the Church teaches about them. In the end, it’s always our own choice to make.

I tend to trust those that He instructed to teach me the right way to live and follow Him, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But, maybe that’s just my way of trusting in Him, and taking Him for His word, that He would send the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all truth. If you can trust yourself to make all of your own decisions, then that might be good for you. I just don’t think I’m smart (or holy) enough to be able to do that on my own. God bless you if you’re that confident to make your own decisions, without worrying about ever being wrong. Call me weak, but I could never do that.
 
I would suggest that you spend time studying the entire first 8 chapters of Romans to put this verse in context. Chery picking verses out of context can be very convincing but at the same time misleading. If after doing this you choose to believe what you believe I totally respect this.

Ed
I have read those chapters several times and am completely comfortable in what I believe. I appreciate the insinuation that I haven’t read my Bible and don’t know what I’m talking about though. 👍 I chose that passage because many Protestants, at least IMO, use Romans as the “gold standard” for trumpeting the doctrine of faith alone. Yet St. Paul speaks several times in that letter of persevering in good works, becoming slaves of righteousness through obedience, etc. indicating that there is something else that is needed in addition to simple assent of belief that Jesus is who he said he was and died for our sins.
 
I would suggest that you spend time studying the entire first 8 chapters of Romans to put this verse in context. Chery picking verses out of context can be very convincing but at the same time misleading. If after doing this you choose to believe what you believe I totally respect this.

Ed
Perhaps you could explain what context could possibly be missing? 🍿
In other words, how do you get St. Paul to say the exact opposite of what he’s saying? :cool:
 
This is absolute nonsense. "Apples and oranges ".

As a longtime evangelical I will staunchly call it out.

Here is the true comparison.

Evangelical “non negotiables/statement of faith” = Catholic Nicene Creed

Catholic Catechism unpacks the creed among other things. The same is done in every evangelical church at the prerogative of the pastor and the writings of modern authors.

If I ask what Christian marriage is I can go solicit the opinions of some pastors in evangelicalism or I can go read the paragraphs declaring what it is in the Catholic Catechism

If you are thinking every evangelical church holds no belief outside it’s statement of faith you are dead wrong. It may not be written down but it is there. In the sermons, in the elder boards opinions, in the writings if it’s "heroes " etc…

The difference is, you can pick the flavor that best suits you because it is all opinion based. And if you can’t find your flavor you can make your own. All the flavors are in the “ice cream store” called evangelicalism, yet none of them are similar.

In Catholicism there is the store that sells Christ’s ice cream. We offer different toppings but the flavor is the same.
Jon, as I’ve posted before, the Protestant churches basically do follow the creeds, except where the word “catholic” has been distorted over the centuries by the Roman Catholic Church to refer only to- the Roman Catholic Church. I hold to the original meaning of the word “catholic,” meaning “universal,” as in “the universal church,” which like it or not is much larger than just the Roman Catholic Church.

As far as the CCC, it has been compiled by fallible human beings, just as the statement of faith documents of other Christian churches have. So any unpacking of the Nicene Creed that has been done by RC bishops is just as prone to error as unpacking of the Nicene Creed by any other body of diligent, devoted erudite Christian scholars.

I realize you are a new convert and full of zeal to defend the RCC, but I think you are being defensive where no defensiveness is warranted.🙂 The Roman Catholic Church is under attack from many quarters, however, it is not being attacked by me.
 
Jon, as I’ve posted before, the Protestant churches basically do follow the creeds,


Actually, Faithdancer, perhaps 10 Christian denominations follow the creeds, but that leaves the remainder of the 10s of thousands of Christian denominations which do NOT follow the creeds.

astudyofdenominations.com/doctrines/creeds/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed

In fact, look at this list of just 5000 denominations compiled by PhilVaz. How many of them follow the creeds?
philvaz.com/DENOMS.php
 
Yes but you tie justification to a rite, to a church event (someone must baptize you).
What is wrong with that?

You do the same thing with marriage. You tie it to a rite. To a church event.

I am astonished that any Christian would object to any kind of rite that is linked to a church event!
 
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