So Is The Bible Wrong?

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MyNameIsChris

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I was having a chat with a Muslim the other day, and one of the things he kept on insisting was that not only do Catholics and Muslims worship the same god, but The Koran and The Bible are perfectly compatible with each other. Apparently, because “The Bible has been changed” , anything in The Bible contradicting anything in The Koran is simply an error that needs to be overlooked. I’m neither Christian/Catholic nor Muslim, but I do know that Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, a notion that Muslims reject, because they only think that he was a Prophet Of God. I mentioned this passage:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

But apparently that is an error is well. Can anyone help me out? Show me clear proof that Jesus himself declared that he was god/the son of god (something that Muslims insist he never did), and also prove to me that The Bible hasn’t been changed beyond recognition.

PS: I have often heard it said by Muslims that Islam is a tolerant religion, and the proof of that are centuries old Churches and Synagogues in Islamic countries, because Sharia protects minorities, and the Dhimmi Tax is only there to secure that protection. Is it true?
 
What your forgetting is the Muhammad was delusional, he had numerous versions of the Quran. We can only guess which version is accurate as they know it.
 
MyNameIsChris said:
I was having a chat with a Muslim the other day, and one of the things he kept on insisting was that not only do Catholics and Muslims worship the same god, but The Koran and The Bible are perfectly compatible with each other. Apparently, because “The Bible has been changed” , anything in The Bible contradicting anything in The Koran is simply an error that needs to be overlooked. I’m neither Christian/Catholic nor Muslim, but I do know that Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, a notion that Muslims reject, because they only think that he was a Prophet Of God. I mentioned this passage:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

But apparently that is an error is well. Can anyone help me out? Show me clear proof that Jesus himself declared that he was god/the son of god (something that Muslims insist he never did), and also prove to me that The Bible hasn’t been changed beyond recognition.
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The number of conversations I’ve had with Muslims, they’ll always find a way to claim it doesn’t say what he said. The line “Before Abraham I AM!” raised some amusing responses, as did St. Thomas’s “My Lord and My God.”

Sadly over the internet it is impossible to prove the bible hasn’t changed beyond recognition, and you’ll never see real proof for yourself unless you learne Koine Greek, however if you’re willing to take the word of others, there is the United Bible Societies’ release of the Greek NT (I forget what edition they are on), they use the oldest and best manuscripts, and are one of the texts used by scholars to translate the bible into English.

While it is absolutely true that there have been minor changes to the texts through time, these changes never add anything regarding faith or morals that is not elsewhere, and I have never seen any of Christ’s proclomations of his Godhood to be among these added bits.
PS: I have often heard it said by Muslims that Islam is a tolerant religion, and the proof of that are centuries old Churches and Synagogues in Islamic countries, because Sharia protects minorities, and the Dhimmi Tax is only there to secure that protection. Is it true?
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It depends on how you define tolerance. The Koran is full of commands to kill unbelievers during times of war, and orders that apostates be killed. Generally speaking it relegates non-Muslims in Muslim countries to the status of second class citizens. They pay extra taxes and their words have little weight in court. There were a great deal of Muslim states who followed this. I would hold up modern Egypt as an example of Muslim tolerance. It seems every other month you hear about attacks on Christians, but generally the state itself doesn’t bother them - of course that may change as Fundamentalists gain power.
 
MyNameIsChris said:
I was having a chat with a Muslim the other day, and one of the things he kept on insisting was that not only do Catholics and Muslims worship the same god, but The Koran and The Bible are perfectly compatible with each other. Apparently, because “The Bible has been changed” , anything in The Bible contradicting anything in The Koran is simply an error that needs to be overlooked. I’m neither Christian/Catholic nor Muslim, but I do know that Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, a notion that Muslims reject, because they only think that he was a Prophet Of God. I mentioned this passage:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

But apparently that is an error is well. Can anyone help me out? Show me clear proof that Jesus himself declared that he was god/the son of god (something that Muslims insist he never did), and also prove to me that The Bible hasn’t been changed beyond recognition.

PS: I have often heard it said by Muslims that Islam is a tolerant religion, and the proof of that are centuries old Churches and Synagogues in Islamic countries, because Sharia protects minorities, and the Dhimmi Tax is only there to secure that protection. Is it true?
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They’ve worked it all out: anything in the Bible that supports them they use as proof that Islam is just the correct interpretation of Abrahamic religion, and anything that contradicts them they say is in there because the text was corrupted by Christians and Jews. 🤷

Regarding Sharia law being tolerant, tell that to the Iraqi Christian shopowners who just had their businesses trashed for “violating Sharia law” (I suspect they sold alcohol or something).
 
The starting point you need to be aware of is that the Koran teaches lieing to “non-believers” (that’s YOU) in order to convert or defeat them.
 
The entire premise behind Islam is to correct what they believe we got wrong. So inherently, a Muslim will always tell you that the Bible in its current form is incorrect - it is the backbone of their faith. Specifically, they reject the Trinity and accept only God as God. To do this, they must disagree with any portion of the Bible that refers to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus as anything more than a prophet.

“Qur’an” literally means “recitation” - it is the written word as Mohammed claims it to have been told to him.

“Islam” has a sort of dual meaning, that being “submission” and “completeness” - the belief being that Islam corrects what actually should be the religion of the Abrahamic faith.

The only way to fulfill your request of proving that the Bible has not been transformed out of its original context would be for you to learn Aramaic, ancient Greek, and ancient Hebrew and compare the ancient texts to today’s versions. I’m not trying to be flippant, but proving the Bible is not a feat for the internet, and one best left to you and the scholars with whom you choose to study.
 
They say the Bible is wrong for reason to justify the Koran. They believe the Koran is a verbatim word of God but that flies on their faces. It was a compilation of oral and writing of pieces of Koran verses without the commas and dots which were placed very much later. Depending on where you place the dot, the word can have more than one meaning. Obviously the early written Korans were not the same until a caliph destroyed them all and authorized his own version. One of the oldest originals, the Yemen script, shows this discrepancy.
 
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MyNameIsChris:
I was having a chat with a Muslim the other day, and one of the things he kept on insisting was that not only do Catholics and Muslims worship the same god, but The Koran and The Bible are perfectly compatible with each other. Apparently, because “The Bible has been changed” , anything in The Bible contradicting anything in The Koran is simply an error that needs to be overlooked.
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Aelred Minor:
They’ve worked it all out: anything in the Bible that supports them they use as proof that Islam is just the correct interpretation of Abrahamic religion, and anything that contradicts them they say is in there because the text was corrupted by Christians and Jews.
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Funny, those are exactly the same arguments used by Mormons with regard to the bible vs. their “scriptures”. :rolleyes:

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
 
Go to JihadWatch Its founder, Robert Spencer, is probably America’s foremost expert on Islam. A little known fact is that Islam contains a doctrine regarding deceiving the non-believer. Essentially, unless you have specific knowledge of Islam, you cannot know if a given Muslim is telling you the truth about the beliefs of their faith, or not. Muslims, as specified in the Qur’an, have three options in dealing with non-Musliims: subject them to Islam, convert them, or kill them.

Here is 1 of 3 of a YouTube interview with him.
 
PaulDupre said:
Funny, those are exactly the same arguments used by Mormons with regard to the bible vs. their “scriptures”. :rolleyes:

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
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There are several other rather disturbing parallels between the two faiths.
 
1ke said:
The starting point you need to be aware of is that the Koran teaches lieing to “non-believers” (that’s YOU) in order to convert or defeat them.
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I don’t think it’s that simple because unlike Catholicism Islam does not have a single teaching authority. In my experience with moderate Muslims (I work with several) they do not consider believers in the Abrahamic traditions as “non-believers”.

In fact I have a much easier time being open about my beliefs with them than with the mostly secularized “Catholics” I work with; far more hate shown by these descendants of Catholics towards believers of all stripe than from the Muslims. In fact no hate whatsoever from the Muslims. I’ve had great discussions in fact about the importance of God and prayer in our lives with one in particular on long walks together.
 
PaulDupre said:
Funny, those are exactly the same arguments used by Mormons with regard to the bible vs. their “scriptures”. :rolleyes:

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
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Wow. Interesting that you mention this. Please correct me if I’m wrong since you were a former Mormon, but wasn’t Joseph Smith quoted as saying that he would become the Muhammad of the west? They both also point to extra scriptures, both proclaim themselves prophets, and both engaged in polygamy. Perplexing.
 
po18guy said:
Go to JihadWatch Its founder, Robert Spencer, is probably America’s foremost expert on Islam. A little known fact is that Islam contains a doctrine regarding deceiving the non-believer. Essentially, unless you have specific knowledge of Islam, you cannot know if a given Muslim is telling you the truth about the beliefs of their faith, or not. Muslims, as specified in the Qur’an, have three options in dealing with non-Musliims: subject them to Islam, convert them, or kill them.

Here is 1 of 3 of a YouTube interview with him.
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I believe it is the Hadiths, not the Koran which allows one to lie if it will advance Islam.
 
jbeck43 said:
Wow. Interesting that you mention this. Please correct me if I’m wrong since you were a former Mormon, but wasn’t Joseph Smith quoted as saying that he would become the Muhammad of the west? They both also point to extra scriptures, both proclaim themselves prophets, and both engaged in polygamy. Perplexing.
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All true, unfortunately.
 
Nine_Two said:
I believe it is the Hadiths, not the Koran which allows one to lie if it will advance Islam.
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I believe you are right. As I understand it, the words of the Qur’an and actions of Muhammad are not subject to interpretation, but must be taken literally. Hadith is the closest to what we know as doctrine, I would guess. Although, listening to Robert spencer describe Islam and its functioning, they think in a vastly different manner from adherents of the other Abrahamic religions.
 
MyNameIsChris said:
PS: I have often heard it said by Muslims that Islam is a tolerant religion, and the proof of that are centuries old Churches and Synagogues in Islamic countries, because Sharia protects minorities, and the Dhimmi Tax is only there to secure that protection. Is it true?
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Sorry, this doesn’t sound sensible. Turn it the other way and see how it sounds: We will now have a special tax to be Muslim here in the US, but only because we’re tolerant. Who’d believe that? If the churches and synagogues are centuries old, ask how many have been allowed to be built in the more recent times.
 
For those who may not know, Mohammed met Nestorian Christians in his travels as a merchant before he had his “vision”…

I consider it an interesting coincidence… perhaps Mohammed heard about the two, separate natures of Jesus, and simply decided to cut one of them out. :-/

Hmmm…
 
po18guy said:
Go to JihadWatch Its founder, Robert Spencer, is probably America’s foremost expert on Islam. A little known fact is that Islam contains a doctrine regarding deceiving the non-believer. Essentially, unless you have specific knowledge of Islam, you cannot know if a given Muslim is telling you the truth about the beliefs of their faith, or not. Muslims, as specified in the Qur’an, have three options in dealing with non-Musliims: subject them to Islam, convert them, or kill them.

Here is 1 of 3 of a YouTube interview with him.
Click to expand...
He was the guest today on CA Live today. I suggest the OP get a copy of the podcast, it was very informative. Among other things I learned from Spencer…we do not worship the same God, lying is ok to deceive the people of the book…meaning Jews and Christians, so it is a must to be knowledgeable…they pray five times a day…but what they are praying for is not for their request for intercession, petition, to get closer to God…but for the damnation of the people of the book ( i forgot the correct term for their prayers…so somebody can correct this as needed)…and a whole lot more.
 
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