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bz5
Guest
thanks for the reminder - I’d heard he’d be on a program today but couldn’t remember which one. I have never heard the part I highlighted! Off to itunes I go…
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pablope
Guest
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PaulDupre
Guest
In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim,
“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”
Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
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Nine_Two
Guest
Do you have a source on that? I know some people who would be very interested.
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Bezant
Guest
Which I would agree with.
Not quite. There are many similarities in content and concept, but the Bible and the Koran were geared toward serving different needs. The Hebrew Bible is basically a set of oral traditions and national history of the People of Israel and it’s relationship with God. The New Testament came out of the Roman occupation of Palestine, in a period when Judaism and Jews were going through lasting changes in philosophy and politics.
In contrast the Quran is a response to the New Testament and the Hebrew Bible, both of which were meant to be the same revelation God gave to Muhammad, but humans corrupted it and distorted it, whether by accident or intentionally. Because these distortions happened when the revelation was put to paper, Muhammad’s revelations were given orally, so that the Word of God would come to people as directly as possible, and copied down practically verbatim.
And that’s the catch, if you’re not a believer.
Code:
:popcorn:People often make very broad, one-sided generalisations about this question–either Islam has to be a bloodthirsty religion and oppressed Christians and Jews, or Islam has to be completely peaceful and Christians and Jews lived with Muslims in harmony.
But if you’re looking back at a global history of about 1500 years, like any comprehensive view of history, the answer is likelier to be both/and, than either/or.
You will find very successful Christian and Jewish communities throughout Islamic history, communities that frankly wouldn’t be allowed to thrive in Europe during the same time period. The records found in Cairo geniza are excellent examples. You will also find that converting to Islam had social and economic incentives, and advantages not available to someone that remained one of the People of the Book. Interestingly Islamic rulers may have been tolerant of Christians and Jews, but not of dissenters within their own religion; sometimes Shiites, Druze, and Bahai were dealt with more harshly than POTB. Sometimes Islamic scholars justified extending dhimmi status to Zoroastrians and Hindus. And sometimes, Christians and Jews were violently persecuted.
You cannot dismiss the outcomes of one event over another’s, and you cannot take an event out of context. Religion is not the only thing happening in these periods and regions, so to say “Muslims did X, so therefore Islam is Y” completely ignores what was going on politically, demographically, economically, etc.
(You should also know that the dhimmi tax was sometimes just a way to keep steady cash following in.
)
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Bezant
Guest
WHY do people on this forum think jihadwatch is a good source on Islam? Seriously?
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
What would happen to the islamic world if only one sect took over as a single authority? What would happen to those other muslims who holds beliefs that are considered heretical?
Christians are not believers in Abraham but in Jesus Christ. I find “Abraham traditions” and “Abraham religions” a bit troublesome because it is invariably used as PC term. I find it strange that to say I belong this larger group and not to my smaller group because I must not use the Name I believe in because it might offend another. Once upon a time Christian and Judeo-Christanity were perfectly fine to use.
I think islam is so clear cut, some muslims look to anything and everything as religiously important but then there are other that anything and everything as heretical. One muslim might say Buddhist are their brothers (when it comes to matters of religion), but then there are other blowing off the face of a Buddhist statue.
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Bezant
Guest
Same here. I’ve many Muslim neighbours and friends and only one has so far tried to convert me. In contrast, I couldn’t tell you how many times non-Catholic Christians have tried to convert me to their churches and insulted mine.
po18guy
Well-known member
That was an absolutely great show. It taught just how different they are in their views. Night and day. ‘Allah’ is a slave master and they are slaves. Love is not involved. It is concerning, if not frightening to dig deeper.
po18guy
Well-known member
They might be quiet, while the leaders of their faith seek to subject all others to Islam via the courts. They have made some headway.
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Bezant
Guest
Who is “they”?
Which courts and where?
And how do “they” do it?
And no, my friends actually respect the fact that I’m a practising Christian.
po18guy
Well-known member
Rather, tell us why it is not. Facts, please, and not merely marginalization.
po18guy
Well-known member
CAIR, with their overtly political activities. The introduction of the concept of Islamic law into American jurisprudence. They use the legal system and the centuries old tactic of deception.
Do I smell an agenda?
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Bezant
Guest
Its sponsorship is backed by the David Horowitz Freedom Centre, a right-wing organisation that’s been accused of Islamophobia. Horowitz himself has been accused of making racist and anti-Muslim polemics. He is not a scholar of the Middle East, Islam, or even religion.
(americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/islamophobia.html), (thenation.com/blog/163023/fear-inc-americas-islamophobia-network)
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz#Controversy_and_criticism)
The bottom line is that you would never find JihadWatch referenced in any credible media or academic source. The only people who take it seriously are 1) either ignorant of Islam 2) are just looking for a source that confirms their preconceived opinions, which is worse than benign ignorance.
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Bezant
Guest
But you live in America and as in the UK religious organisations are allowed to have a viewpoint and promote it within the right to free speech.
This is simply not true any more than canon law, Jewish courts or the Wizengamot are a part of American jurisprudence.
As neither of your supporting examples are real issues legally they do not support your suspicion that there’s some sort of “agenda” (whatever it is) going on.
po18guy
Well-known member
I requested no marginalization. Your entire reply is purely opinionated marginalization. Name calling is not a factual response.
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Bezant
Guest
Po18guy,
You asked why JihadWatch I thought why not a credible source, and I gave evidence. If you can show that JihadWatch is a serious source, or that my articles are problematic, fine. But you need to do more than respond, “Well, you’re biased [towards ???]” when I’ve done my homework.
It’s one thing to have a critical view of Islam if you go directly to universally-acceptable sources and counter-opinions. It’s entirely different to get your information through a third-party with severe criticism leveled against it and no respectable scholarly backing to speak of.
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Sam_777
Guest
Quran during Muhammed times is different than the one we have today, so shall it be called corrupted 
…
1) During the time of Muhammed, some of the Quran had been written by his disciples when Muhammed used to recite them, they were written using early Arabic ancient script (no pointing and no vowel marks) on papyrus and leather fabric, however, some versus of Quran were not written at all but his disciples where memorizing them.
2) After Muhammed death Abu-Bakr ordered all versus of Quran to be written.
3) During Uthman time (after around 14 years of Muhammed death), Uthman burnt all versions of Quran and wrote his own version:
4) During the 5th Umayyad Caliph (after around 70 years of Muhammed death), pointing and vowel marks were added to the original text:
http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/Quran/kufi2_2dAH.jpeg
5) Authentic hadiths:
***Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
*A particular verse of the stoning punishment for stoning (male cleric) & (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
(E) (E)
6) Yemen’s manuscript:
"Puin is not alone in his enthusiasm. “The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt,” says Andrew Rippin, a professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary, who is at the forefront of Koranic studies today. "Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."
theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm
…1) During the time of Muhammed, some of the Quran had been written by his disciples when Muhammed used to recite them, they were written using early Arabic ancient script (no pointing and no vowel marks) on papyrus and leather fabric, however, some versus of Quran were not written at all but his disciples where memorizing them.
2) After Muhammed death Abu-Bakr ordered all versus of Quran to be written.
3) During Uthman time (after around 14 years of Muhammed death), Uthman burnt all versions of Quran and wrote his own version:
4) During the 5th Umayyad Caliph (after around 70 years of Muhammed death), pointing and vowel marks were added to the original text:
http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/Quran/kufi2_2dAH.jpeg
5) Authentic hadiths:
***Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
*A particular verse of the stoning punishment for stoning (male cleric) & (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
(E) (E)
6) Yemen’s manuscript:
"Puin is not alone in his enthusiasm. “The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt,” says Andrew Rippin, a professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary, who is at the forefront of Koranic studies today. "Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."
theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right, you know the sad truth of all of this is that there are very good muslims and not just here, but throughout the world.
Its unfortunate that there are so many sects of Islam which appeal to violence, and involves not only specific areas of Islam, but even those who live in poverty for the sake of personal gain. Which has been witnessed in Iraq with Christian land/homes etc.
Whats even more disturbing is children are taught to hate, and their hero’s become the suicide bombers whom are glorified by their so-called act or martrydom. Thus we have children through learned behavior wired with explosives for what they truly believe is a just cause. Chants of Palestine are “We believe in Death, You believe in Life”
And another generation is taught to hate all which are not exactly like themselves in belief.
Peace
Its unfortunate that there are so many sects of Islam which appeal to violence, and involves not only specific areas of Islam, but even those who live in poverty for the sake of personal gain. Which has been witnessed in Iraq with Christian land/homes etc.
Whats even more disturbing is children are taught to hate, and their hero’s become the suicide bombers whom are glorified by their so-called act or martrydom. Thus we have children through learned behavior wired with explosives for what they truly believe is a just cause. Chants of Palestine are “We believe in Death, You believe in Life”
And another generation is taught to hate all which are not exactly like themselves in belief.Peace
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Sam_777
Guest
Those are implementing 100% Islam…, Jihad (aka violence) is the main principle of Islam, Muhammed said:
Sahih Muslim, Book 020, Number 4696:
"One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite."
صحيح مسلم:
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من مات ولم يغز ولم يحدث به نفسه مات على شعبة من نفاق
(E)قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من مات ولم يغز ولم يحدث به نفسه مات على شعبة من نفاق
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