So just what are the beliefs that are mandatory for salvation

[One_in_Christ_1]

As individuals, we cannot. But, as a Church (the visible Church on earth, organized together) we can easily do all of these things.

For example, Jesus cured dozens of lepers while He walked the earth. The Church (meaning, members of the Church working together) has cured many millions of lepers.

Jesus made a handful of blind men to be able to see. The Church has made millions of blind people to be able to see - both the physically blind, and the spiritually blind.

Jesus fed five thousand men together with their wives and children from a small donation given by a child. The Church has fed many millions of starving families, using the little handfuls of coins given by children all over the world in their Share Lent boxes and their Holy Childhood envelopes.

Each person by himself or by herself cannot do as much as Jesus did - not by a long shot. That’s why we become members of the Church - to be part of something greater than ourselves, and in order to be able to do “greater things than these.”

I can generallyl agree with what you shared. However, upon belief in Christ, we become members of the church. Do you believe you become a member of the body of Christ upon faith in Christ or becoming an official member of the Catholic Church? It is Christ in us, or the life of God in the soul of man, doing the works of God through and in us.

 

[jmcrae]

I can generallyl agree with what you shared. However, upon belief in Christ, we become members of the church. Do you believe you become a member of the body of Christ upon faith in Christ or becoming an official member of the Catholic Church? It is Christ in us, or the life of God in the soul of man, doing the works of God through and in us.

I came into partial communion with the Church when I was baptized and came to faith in a Protestant organization.

I came into full communion with both the Church and Christ when I entered the Catholic Church by means of a profession of faith and the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion. I now see clearly the things that I was only vaguely aware of, as a Protestant.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

I came into partial communion with the Church when I was baptized and came to faith in a Protestant organization.

I came into full communion with both the Church and Christ when I entered the Catholic Church by means of a profession of faith and the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion. I now see clearly the things that I was only vaguely aware of, as a Protestant.

I’m not familiar with partial communion with God through Christ and full communion. If we have been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, are we not in full communion with the Father? How clearly are you able to see now as a Catholic Christian as compared to being a Protestant Christian?

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not familiar with partial communion with God through Christ and full communion. If we have been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, are we not in full communion with the Father? How clearly are you able to see now as a Catholic Christian as compared to being a Protestant Christian?

The whole Bible makes way more sense, now - there are no more “obscure passages” in it.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

The whole Bible makes way more sense, now - there are no more “obscure passages” in it.

 

[Roblox84]

This is erroneous. Cf. CCC 1257-1261

The Necessity of Baptism

Sorry I meant baptism as in the traditional christian baptism is not necessary. Baptism as a whole is necessary but it can be given to you when you die. So baptism as seen today in Churchs with pouring water is just merely a continuation of what John the baptist did, but that isn’t the only way of getting a baptism. It’s pretty much a tradition in all churchs to assure ones salvation.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

So technically you don’t need to “do” sacraments as many people think that Catholics believe in order to get to heaven. It is something that is given through the grace of God in any part of ones life or death.

Then this passage from the catechism states that children who die without baptism will be saved through the mercy of God.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry I meant baptism as in the traditional christian baptism is not necessary. Baptism as a whole is necessary but it can be given to you when you die. So baptism as seen today in Churchs with pouring water is just merely a continuation of what John the baptist did, but that isn’t the only way of getting a baptism. It’s pretty much a tradition in all churchs to assure ones salvation.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

So technically you don’t need to “do” sacraments as many people think that Catholics believe in order to get to heaven.

Right. You do need to desire them, though, and be taking the steps to overcome whatever obstacles are between you and the Sacraments.

 

[Roblox84]

Right. You do need to desire them, though, and be taking the steps to overcome whatever obstacles are between you and the Sacraments.

Yep, I agree

Do many protestant denominations babtize in the name of the father, holy spirit, etc… or do they just go into the dunk tank and the pastor say’s nothing?

 

[CMatt25]

Since nobody is able to serve like Christ served, where does that leave us when we fall short in serving like Christ?

As individuals we can serve and with all of us combined it adds up. And yes I believe all believers are part of His body. Your screen name says it all. The One who unites us is far greater than anything that we may differ on.

 

[CMatt25]

Yep, I agree

Do many protestant denominations babtize in the name of the father, holy spirit, etc… or do they just go into the dunk tank and the pastor say’s nothing?

Rob, I think that was rhetorical. But yes to the first one and a lot of Protestants actually don’t require dunking. Many will accept Catholic baptism and visa versa.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I see what you mean. Good point! But is it applicable? I mean, is God’s mind like a cake you and I bake, or is it more like something else?

The cake is, just as anything else when compared to the Glory of God, a very poor example

Tell me if I wrong, James, but we are talking about something much more than a static and inanimate desert you and I might potentially devour. We are talking about a dynamic and sentient mind. My thought is that a cake has more in common with a pet rock or a snowball than the mind of God! If we are to wrap our minds around how His mind thinks, then we should try to compare it to something that actually thinks, like the human mind. Don’t you think?

Possibly that would get us closer, but one must also remember that God has a nature that is oure Good. That is All Loving. Just as satan has a nature that is pure evil. And in both cases these natures are pure beyond our full understanding.
In this the human mind fails because it is torn between the Good of our creator and the bad of our fallen nature.

The next question to answer, then, is whether the human mind has both potential and actual thought, and is capable of both potential and actual action. It seems self-evident that you and I have potential and actual knowledge (for there are some things we already know and some things we have yet to learn or might never learn) and potential and actual action (for there are somethings we have done and somethings we have yet to do but might never do). But what about God? Do you think God is unlike you and me insofar as there is nothing potential about Him? Are you saying that He has no potential thoughts and no potential actions?

This is beyond the capability of my poor mind to understand and beyond my desire to grapple with. I tried some of this years ago and found it to be “Dust in the Wind”, neither useful nor productive.
I can only deal with what I know of God by what God has told me/us.
God Loves us. That is not Potential - it is actual and unconditional Love. He want su to be with Him.
If we wish to be with God, we need only Love him back - In actual, unconditional, filial Love and not potential, conditional, selfish love.

The rest, potential - actual - conditional - unconditional - etc natures of God, are matters that provide me with no real benefit and only serve to cloud that simple and basic truth taught to us by Christ Himself. That all is based upon Love of God and Love of neighbor.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I never really understood what Christians mean by serving. Can you help me out on this idea on serving?

Matthew 25 :31-46
“…For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in…”

Example:
Mother Theresa of Calcutta is a large example of this type of service. Your local soup kitchen smaller a smaller but just as great example.

Matthew 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Example:
Many, both Catholic and non-catholic look at the Pope for instance and see “power” and “lordship” because of his station. But look beyond the clothes and the cars etc and consider the slavish and service oriented nature of the papacy. He owns nothing. He is besieged by requests for prayers, or audiences, favors, and a whole host of other things. From his rising to his sleeping his day is scheduled usually not by him but by others.
The responsibility he carries, to teach correctly and to assure that his words and actions are not misinterpreted, is enormous. And He cannot put this burden down because God himself has called him to this place. He, the pope must bear this cross, this responsibility, this service, to the end of his days on this earth.

Each of us then is called to this type of service. Regardles of our station in life. To do the Will fo God. To Love and serve our fellow man for the Love of God.

Hope this helps some.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps you are correct. Why should you and I love God? For no reason at all (that is, unconditionally) or because there is a good reason (that is, conditionally). I do find these words of Peter have potential to help us:

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

(1 Peter 1:8-9)

It seems to me that perhaps the condition God has met to deserve our love is that He is giving us the salvation of our souls. It seems a good reason to me. How does it seem to you?

He has also given us our lives, our families, our world, the sunrise, the stars, etc…
He has given us ALL - thus He deserves our Love - unconditinally.

Peace
James

 

[a_priori]

Just asking the question?

Please provide support for your assertions.

My brain will not let go of the notion that “mandatory beliefs” is an oxymoron. I know this leads to all sorts of heartburn but I can’t help it. It’s not as if we have a switch in our heads that we can use to “dial in” the correct belief. You either believe something or you don’t. It is far less volitional than most people seem to assert.

I know, I know…heartburn.

 

[alitaptap]

My brain will not let go of the notion that “mandatory beliefs” is an oxymoron. I know this leads to all sorts of heartburn but I can’t help it. It’s not as if we have a switch in our heads that we can use to “dial in” the correct belief. You either believe something or you don’t. It is far less volitional than most people seem to assert.

I know, I know…heartburn.

If people will not be saved in wrong belief, how do we know if the existing belief is the right or wrong one without believing?

What if I believe that Salvation isn’t about going to Heaven instead Salvation is about bringing Heaven down on earth, especially to those who are suffering i.e. the poor, the sick, the abandoned, and the spiritually lost? Would this belief make any difference?

 

[a_priori]

If people will not be saved in wrong belief, how do we know if the existing belief is the right or wrong one without believing?

What if I believe that Salvation isn’t about going to Heaven instead Salvation is about bringing Heaven down on earth, especially to those who are suffering i.e. the poor, the sick, the abandoned, and the spiritually lost? Would this belief make any difference?

I do understand the minefield my point of view creates. I just don’t know where belief in “required dogmas” begins and ends. How can one believe something their brain rejects?

 

[spockrates]

The cake is, just as anything else when compared to the Glory of God, a very poor example

Agreed. I suppose that so are we very poor examples!

Possibly that would get us closer, but one must also remember that God has a nature that is oure Good. That is All Loving. Just as satan has a nature that is pure evil. And in both cases these natures are pure beyond our full understanding.
In this the human mind fails because it is torn between the Good of our creator and the bad of our fallen nature.

Yes, I suppose God’s love and Satan’s hate are equally beyond comprehension, but I also suppose that should not keep me from trying to understand!

I want to know Christ …

(Philippians 3:10)

This is beyond the capability of my poor mind to understand and beyond my desire to grapple with. I tried some of this years ago and found it to be “Dust in the Wind”, neither useful nor productive. I can only deal with what I know of God by what God has told me/us. God Loves us. That is not Potential - it is actual and unconditional Love. …

I’m good with that, James. Let’s stick to what God tells you and me and leave the rest to storm chasers. Please tell me exactly where in the Bible, or in the Catechism, or in the writings of the early Church Fathers it says we must meet no conditions to receive God’s love.

 

[spockrates]

He has also given us our lives, our families, our world, the sunrise, the stars, etc…
He has given us ALL - thus He deserves our Love - unconditinally.

Peace
James

But God has not only met, but also far exceeded, the conditions necessary to require our your love and mine. Even the disciple whom Jesus loved admitted that the reason we love God is that He met the conditions to deserve our love.

We love because he first loved us.

(1 John 4:19)

So I’m still trying to understand, James how one can say God has not net the conditions to deserve one’s love. Since He meets the conditions to deserve our love (by loving us first) then don’t we then love Him conditionally? Perhaps the disciple Jesus loved has it wrong. Perhaps God has in no way met any conditions for us to love Him. Do you think that maybe we do NOT love Him *because *He first loved us, but love Him *regardless *of any conditions He has met? I’m not so sure.

Think about it: If someone asks you why you love God, and you answer, “For no good reason; I just do!” then you indeed are saying that you love Him unconditionally. But if someone asks you why you love God, and you answer "Because He _________ " and fill in the blank, then you have just mentioned a condition God has met to deserve your love. Haven’t you?

 

[AJTheMan]

The OP asks what beliefs are mandatory for salvation.

If I may ask the Catholics here, would the beliefs said in the Nicene Creed be considered the beliefs mandatory for salvation?

To be saved from a Christian perspective, these are the things to believe in?

 

[jmcrae]

I do understand the minefield my point of view creates. I just don’t know where belief in “required dogmas” begins and ends. How can one believe something their brain rejects?

By first suspending disbelief. “Let’s say this were true - then what?” If the “then what” makes sense, then it’s a lot easier to begin to believe.