So let me get this straight

[Binary]

When you get right down to it, all I am is a choice that I must continually make: to move closer or farther from God. Though I spend my life forming my personhood through learning, experience, and suffering, none of that really matters except insofar as it informs my choice.

I have wants and desires, ambitions, dreams, and plans, but these are all one of two types. Either they are of myself, and must be discouraged, denied, and purged if possible, or they are natural, healthy desires which are healthy because all of them have a desire to be with God as their ultimate end. When I die and (hopefully go through purgatory), all selfish desires will be removed from me. All natural desires will be fulfilled in that I will have reached the end of all of them:union with God.

I have relationships with people whom I care deeply about. Supposing we all make it to heaven, my relationships with these people will be perfected and elevated to a level of love I have never experienced in life. I will love everyone equally and they will love me, based solely on the fact that we all chose to be with God. What other reason would you have? What trace of personality could remain when one is fully submerged in God’s divine glory? What could I appreciate about anyone, or what could I possibly exchange with them other than a mutual joy that we are both there? I don’t think saints talk to each other. I think they spend all of their time giving glory to God.

I have no goodness in me aside from the goodness of God that I may reflect, however dimly, as a dirty mirror might reflect the tiniest fraction of the light of the sun. There is literally not one iota of goodness that I can contribute to the world that does not come from God, save from what I indirectly contribute through by participating in his plan for me by choosing to move closer to him.

In effect, the purpose for which I have been made is either to serve as a brilliant mirror, possessing no light of my own, but eternally reflecting the glory of God, or to choose to cling to the bits of dirt that cover my soul, and remain in eternal darkness.

So here are my questions in no particular order: why should I bother to continue forming my personality (through hard work, suffering, and enjoying life) now when it will be utterly destroyed later? Why should I bother maintaining relationships now when in the end, I will love everyone perfectly equally? Why shouldn’t I abandon my greatest hope, to fall in love with a woman, get married, and have a child, when my relationships with my family will cease to have any particular significance to me in heaven? The best answer I have to any of these is to reduce my time in purgatory. Is that it?

What is the point of any of this existence? You can say “I” may experience eternal joy, but whatever “I” am will be completely erased. All that will exist of me is a feeling, a state of being that is achievable on earth through substances, and which is objectively a step down from the dignity of being a person.

 

[greylorn]

When you get right down to it, all I am is a choice that I must continually make: to move closer or farther from God. Though I spend my life forming my personhood through learning, experience, and suffering, none of that really matters except insofar as it informs my choice.

I have wants and desires, ambitions, dreams, and plans, but these are all one of two types. Either they are of myself, and must be discouraged, denied, and purged if possible, or they are natural, healthy desires which are healthy because all of them have a desire to be with God as their ultimate end. When I die and (hopefully go through purgatory), all selfish desires will be removed from me. All natural desires will be fulfilled in that I will have reached the end of all of them:union with God.

I have relationships with people whom I care deeply about. Supposing we all make it to heaven, my relationships with these people will be perfected and elevated to a level of love I have never experienced in life. I will love everyone equally and they will love me, based solely on the fact that we all chose to be with God. What other reason would you have? What trace of personality could remain when one is fully submerged in God’s divine glory? What could I appreciate about anyone, or what could I possibly exchange with them other than a mutual joy that we are both there? I don’t think saints talk to each other. I think they spend all of their time giving glory to God.

I have no goodness in me aside from the goodness of God that I may reflect, however dimly, as a dirty mirror might reflect the tiniest fraction of the light of the sun. There is literally not one iota of goodness that I can contribute to the world that does not come from God, save from what I indirectly contribute through by participating in his plan for me by choosing to move closer to him.

In effect, the purpose for which I have been made is either to serve as a brilliant mirror, possessing no light of my own, but eternally reflecting the glory of God, or to choose to cling to the bits of dirt that cover my soul, and remain in eternal darkness.

So here are my questions in no particular order: why should I bother to continue forming my personality (through hard work, suffering, and enjoying life) now when it will be utterly destroyed later? Why should I bother maintaining relationships now when in the end, I will love everyone perfectly equally? Why shouldn’t I abandon my greatest hope, to fall in love with a woman, get married, and have a child, when my relationships with my family will cease to have any particular significance to me in heaven? The best answer I have to any of these is to reduce my time in purgatory. Is that it?

What is the point of any of this existence? You can say “I” may experience eternal joy, but whatever “I” am will be completely erased. All that will exist of me is a feeling, a state of being that is achievable on earth through substances, and which is objectively a step down from the dignity of being a person.

You’ve done some good thinking. Keep at it. So far, rather than drawing the logical conclusions, you’ve directed your thinking into what computer programmers call a “tight loop,” exemplified by a dog chasing its tail. Pretend you’re the dog, and take a moment to glance off into infinity, seeing the magnificent universe out there, and turning an excellent mind outward to a higher level of understanding. Cut off your tail— it is unimportant. If you should be unlucky enough to catch it, all you’ll find at the proximal end is an asholse.

If I ever publish again my book will answer your questions, but in the meantime you might benefit from some lightening up. I invite you to read Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven, a long short story by Mark Twain. I found it in a used bookstore decades ago and would expect someone to have installed it on the internet by now.

Let me know your thoughts, then. Your question is a good one, worth following up.

 

[tonyrey]

How do you know - or why do you believe - whatever you are will be completely erased?

John Keats - who died at 25 - regarded this world as “a vale of soul-making”. There is much evidence that we become what we choose to become…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If I ever publish again my book .

What is your current book called? Is it online?

 

[ANNAMARIEBELLE]

What is your current book called? Is it online?

youtube.com/watch?v=unmQl3wK83M here’s the short story of Captain Stomfield’s visit to heaven.

 

[greylorn]

What is your current book called? Is it online?

I cannot give you the name of my first book w/o losing anonymity, which I’d like to retain for a while. The book I’m currently working on will be out in a few months, and I’ll include the name of it in my personal page. Thank you for your interest. I hope to get your feedback.

 

[Binary]

You’ve done some good thinking. Keep at it. So far, rather than drawing the logical conclusions, you’ve directed your thinking into what computer programmers call a “tight loop,” exemplified by a dog chasing its tail. Pretend you’re the dog, and take a moment to glance off into infinity, seeing the magnificent universe out there, and turning an excellent mind outward to a higher level of understanding. Cut off your tail— it is unimportant. If you should be unlucky enough to catch it, all you’ll find at the proximal end is an asholse.

If I ever publish again my book will answer your questions, but in the meantime you might benefit from some lightening up. I invite you to read Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven, a long short story by Mark Twain. I found it in a used bookstore decades ago and would expect someone to have installed it on the internet by now.

Let me know your thoughts, then. Your question is a good one, worth following up.

Thank you for the recommendation. I greatly enjoyed it. The conclusion I think you are hoping that I will draw is that most of the things I care about and chase after now are, on their own merit, as valuable as the base of a dog’s tail. The step after that would be to suppose that, given a perfected soul and intellect, I will be able to appreciate and pursue things far beyond my understanding now, bringing an incredible satisfaction and joy to my existence. If that’s the case, I may be able to have relationships that are more profound as well. And, if I sound as though I’ve lost sight of the point, I think all of these things would give greater glory to God.

My admittedly hazy grasp of Catholic philosophy tells me that, roughly speaking, we live in a world of shadows. The “natural” forms of everything we know in the world have only a fraction of the (substance? realness?) of their supernatural (divine?) forms. So in the same way that an infant is undeveloped in so many ways compared to a wholly mature adult, our adult selves may have that much room to grow again (or more) to develop into saints.

To elaborate, an infant has formative experiences like flailing their limbs around and vocalizing to learn how their body works, and these things are barely intimations of the graceful motions and inspiring songs that a practiced, skilled adult can perform. To the infant, these actions are all they know, and they are happy to engage in them, and all of it is good and natural. As adults, we undertake actions of intellect and will and love that are all good and beautiful, and (I think what you and Mr. Twain are implying) formative for the vastly deeper, supernatural efforts of the same kind that saints may make. From a saint’s perspective, they may regard some of the efforts they undertook while alive as perfectly good in their own right, but still… shallow(?) compared to what man is capable of in heaven.

I’m no theologian, but this has a ring of truth to me. Please correct me if I’ve said anything incompatible with Church teaching. If I’ve at least got the gist of it, you’ve solved my problem. I’d been unable to see a way out of the box (or loop if you’d prefer) I’d created for the last few weeks, and I’ve been feeling angry and depressed about it.

 

[greylorn]

Thank you for the recommendation. I greatly enjoyed it. The conclusion I think you are hoping that I will draw is that most of the things I care about and chase after now are, on their own merit, as valuable as the base of a dog’s tail. The step after that would be to suppose that, given a perfected soul and intellect, I will be able to appreciate and pursue things far beyond my understanding now, bringing an incredible satisfaction and joy to my existence. If that’s the case, I may be able to have relationships that are more profound as well. And, if I sound as though I’ve lost sight of the point, I think all of these things would give greater glory to God.

My admittedly hazy grasp of Catholic philosophy tells me that, roughly speaking, we live in a world of shadows. The “natural” forms of everything we know in the world have only a fraction of the (substance? realness?) of their supernatural (divine?) forms. So in the same way that an infant is undeveloped in so many ways compared to a wholly mature adult, our adult selves may have that much room to grow again (or more) to develop into saints.

To elaborate, an infant has formative experiences like flailing their limbs around and vocalizing to learn how their body works, and these things are barely intimations of the graceful motions and inspiring songs that a practiced, skilled adult can perform. To the infant, these actions are all they know, and they are happy to engage in them, and all of it is good and natural. As adults, we undertake actions of intellect and will and love that are all good and beautiful, and (I think what you and Mr. Twain are implying) formative for the vastly deeper, supernatural efforts of the same kind that saints may make. From a saint’s perspective, they may regard some of the efforts they undertook while alive as perfectly good in their own right, but still… shallow(?) compared to what man is capable of in heaven.

I’m no theologian, but this has a ring of truth to me. Please correct me if I’ve said anything incompatible with Church teaching. If I’ve at least got the gist of it, you’ve solved my problem. I’d been unable to see a way out of the box (or loop if you’d prefer) I’d created for the last few weeks, and I’ve been feeling angry and depressed about it.

Thank you. I had no expectations as to what you’d get from the story, but some of your introspections reminded me of Samuel Clemens’ less published or unpublished material, so I figured that there would be plenty in common, and trusted you to find your own value. Ultimately that will pull you out of future downturns.

Then, as you go through life, learn a lot about as much as you can. Gather diverse experience as it is essential to the understanding of all things. You are here on earth to gather a taste of experience, to learn things you do not know, and to overcome fear of life, not to worry about heaven. There will come a time for you to become a writer. You will do well to express your understandings through your experiences.

When you finally cash in your chips, you will have done the kind of good for others that Sam Clemens has done for you, manyfold.

 

[Binary]

Thank you. I had no expectations as to what you’d get from the story, but some of your introspections reminded me of Samuel Clemens’ less published or unpublished material, so I figured that there would be plenty in common, and trusted you to find your own value. Ultimately that will pull you out of future downturns.

Then, as you go through life, learn a lot about as much as you can. Gather diverse experience as it is essential to the understanding of all things. You are here on earth to gather a taste of experience, to learn things you do not know, and to overcome fear of life, not to worry about heaven. There will come a time for you to become a writer. You will do well to express your understandings through your experiences.

When you finally cash in your chips, you will have done the kind of good for others that Sam Clemens has done for you, manyfold.

That’s very flattering of you to say. I’ll take your advice. Thanks again.

 

[Luke_K]

So here are my questions in no particular order: why should I bother to continue forming my personality (through hard work, suffering, and enjoying life) now when it will be utterly destroyed later? Why should I bother maintaining relationships now when in the end, I will love everyone perfectly equally? Why shouldn’t I abandon my greatest hope, to fall in love with a woman, get married, and have a child, when my relationships with my family will cease to have any particular significance to me in heaven? The best answer I have to any of these is to reduce my time in purgatory. Is that it?

What is the point of any of this existence? You can say “I” may experience eternal joy, but whatever “I” am will be completely erased. All that will exist of me is a feeling, a state of being that is achievable on earth through substances, and which is objectively a step down from the dignity of being a person.

In Revelations 2:17, Jesus says “To the victor I shall give…a white amulet upon which is inscribed a new name, which no one knows except the one who receives it.” So apparently we will still have our individuality in heaven- a uniqueness.

I think you’re asking too much for anyone to answer. The fact is, despite what anyone tries to argue, we don’t really know. So don’t worry too much about it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

How do you know - or why do you believe - whatever you are will be completely erased?

John Keats - who died at 25 - regarded this world as “a vale of soul-making”. There is much evidence that we become what we choose to become…

Where is that evidence?

 

[StrawberryJam]

In Revelations 2:17, Jesus says “To the victor I shall give…a white amulet upon which is inscribed a new name, which no one knows except the one who receives it.” So apparently we will still have our individuality in heaven- a uniqueness.

I think you’re asking too much for anyone to answer. The fact is, despite what anyone tries to argue, we don’t really know. So don’t worry too much about it.

Why not tell him that he will find out more in heaven? That should put him off like many others before him.