So...should artificial birth control be illegal too?

[edwest2]

**I think that when some people try to take things to extremes, it makes people who are on the fence, jump to the other side.

You’re not going to make people more Catholic by enforcing Catholic rules on them. You’re just going to make them hate the Church more and rebel more. If you want people to stop using ABCs, you should educate them about ABCs and NFP and it should be their choice. When the choice comes from THEM, then it has merit. Forcing people to do what you want is just going to backfire in the end. Just MOHO.**

I agree with this. In fact, I believe, our licentious society is a response to the puritanical mind-set of the past. Thus does one form of extremism result in the opposite form of extremism. When Catholics proclaim that condoms should be criminalized and that anyone who has premarital sex is as sinful as a mass-murderer or child-molester, what is the reasonable person to do?

What you’ve written above actually describes my current position as I return to the faith after a many decades long absence. I have really gotten sick of the licentiousness I see all around me: gays all over television saying their lifestyle is natural, young women who think it’s normal to have many baby-daddys, advertisements in public places that are basically soft porn. So I turned back to the Catholic community where people do not condone this sort of behavior and I find the opposite extreme here.

Why are reasonable people not reasonable? Catholic or non-Catholic, if you don’t want an unplanned baby, don’t have sex. Don’t people get that? Or are they programmed to believe another falsehood: I Can’t Control My Sexual Desires? That’s the issue here. Can you control yourself?

No one is going to force you to do anything. But if you value thinking so much then why can’t you just say no?

Peace,
Ed

 

[Rence]

Why are reasonable people not reasonable? Catholic or non-Catholic, if you don’t want an unplanned baby, don’t have sex. Don’t people get that? Or are they programmed to believe another falsehood: I Can’t Control My Sexual Desires? That’s the issue here. Can you control yourself?

No one is going to force you to do anything. But if you value thinking so much then why can’t you just say no?

Peace,
Ed

No, people do NOT get that. And you can’t force them to get it by telling them that the rules of the Church should rule the world. Not having sex outside of is a Catholic/Christian teaching that should not be enforced on those who do not practice a Catholic/Christian faith. Many people don’t believe it’s wrong and don’t follow this rule and should not be forced to just because the CC teaches it. I think the CC would do well to control their own members before trying to control non-members. How can you enforce that rule on non-Christians when the Christians are out there doing it without regard to the rules? This is not a universal law. It’s not a secular law. It’s purely a religious law. And that’s how it should be.

 

[kage_ar]

No, people do NOT get that. And you can’t force them to get it by telling them that the rules of the Church should rule the world. Not having sex outside of is a Catholic/Christian teaching that should not be enforced on those who do not practice a Catholic/Christian faith. Many people don’t believe it’s wrong and don’t follow this rule and should not be forced to just because the CC teaches it. I think the CC would do well to control their own members before trying to control non-members. How can you enforce that rule on non-Christians when the Christians are out there doing it without regard to the rules? This is not a universal law. It’s not a secular law. It’s purely a religious law. And that’s how it should be.

Is God the God of everything?

Simple yes or no question.

 

[Rence]

Is God the God of everything?

Simple yes or no question.

For me, yes. For the Atheist beside me, no.

 

[kage_ar]

For me, yes. For the Atheist beside me, no.

That is the heresy of relativism.

God is the God of everything, even of the people who reject Him.

This is a basic tenet of the Christian Faith.

Once you accept this, then, you understand that God is the creator and ruler of all.

 

[Christopher68]

The war on drugs has been successful. It’s too bad the war on cigarettes has gotten such a late start. Everyone should be taught that both are dangerous and that illegal drugs can ruin lives and drive up health care costs. And treatment is fine but that’s like saying, “I’ll take illegal drugs until I’m so messed up that I’ll need treatment.” “Or, I’ll shoot myself in the foot just for kicks then I’ll go the hospital and get it patched up.”

Peace,
Ed

Ed,

By what standard do you believe that the war on drugs has been successful?

Here is an article from the Wall Street Journal that states that the war on drugs has been a failure:

online.wsj.com/article/SB123535114271444981.html

 

[Rence]

That is the heresy of relativism.

God is the God of everything, even of the people who reject Him.

This is a basic tenet of the Christian Faith.

Once you accept this, then, you understand that God is the creator and ruler of all.

You’re right: God is the God of everything, even of the people who reject him. I know that. But the atheist next to me doesn’t believe that, and shouldn’t live by the rules I choose to live by. Non-Christians don’t know, and don’t care, about basic tenets of the Christian Faith.

 

[kage_ar]

You’re right: God is the God of everything, even of the people who reject him. I know that. But the atheist next to me doesn’t believe that, and shouldn’t live by the rules I choose to live by. Non-Christians don’t know, and don’t care, about basic tenets of the Christian Faith.

Yet, we have laws to enforce morality.

Now, another yes or now.

Is murder a moral issue?

 

[Rence]

Yet, we have laws to enforce morality.

Now, another yes or now.

Is murder a moral issue?

There are no laws against having pre-marital sex. Not where I live. I don’t see that changing in the near or distant future.

Murder is both a moral issue as well as against the law.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

think that when some people try to take things to extremes, it makes people who are on the fence, jump to the other side.

You’re not going to make people more Catholic by enforcing Catholic rules on them. You’re just going to make them hate the Church more and rebel more.

We enforce (somwhat, with the notable exception of abortion) the 5th commandment “though shalt not kill”. We enforce “though shalt not steal”. We enforce “though shalt not lie” in business practices. Yet people don’t complain. In areas of Mexico where abortion is illegal, it’s not driving away people in mass numbers from the Catholic church. Malta is 98% Catholic, they ban abortion and I think they even have restrictions on contraception.

You’re right: God is the God of everything, even of the people who reject him. I know that. But the atheist next to me doesn’t believe that, and shouldn’t live by the rules I choose to live by.

Black people are people, I know that. But the KKK member right next to me doesn’t believe that. Should he be allowed to own slaves? A mentally ill person is not Napolean. You know that. The person right next to me knows that. But he doesn’t know that. Should we let him rule France?

Murder is both a moral issue as well as against the law.

SInce murder is against the law, it’s okay for it to be illegal? When contraception was against the law, does that mean it was okay for it to be illegal then? Let’s say we have a society where murder isn’t illegal, maybe some place without a government. Should we make murder illegal then?

 

[kage_ar]

There are no laws against having pre-marital sex. Not where I live. I don’t see that changing in the near or distant future.

Murder is both a moral issue as well as against the law.

So, you agree that we as a society use laws to enforce moral behavoir regarding murder.

You may find it interesting that just a few short years ago, pre-marital sex was illegal. Laws can be changed. Pray God that soon our society comes back to moral laws.

 

[Rence]

We enforce (somwhat, with the notable exception of abortion) the 5th commandment “though shalt not kill”. We enforce “though shalt not steal”. We enforce “though shalt not lie” in business practices. Yet people don’t complain. In areas of Mexico where abortion is illegal, it’s not driving away people in mass numbers from the Catholic church. Malta is 98% Catholic, they ban abortion and I think they even have restrictions on contraception.

**That is because the law makers and those who support the law makers, and the majority of civilians, all agree that murder, stealking and lying in business practice should be against the law.

I’m sorry, I don’t know where Malta is. Where I live, there is no ban on abortion or restrictions on contraception. **

Black people are people, I know that. But the KKK member right next to me doesn’t believe that. Should he be allowed to own slaves? A mentally ill person is not Napolean. You know that. The person right next to me knows that. But he doesn’t know that. Should we let him rule France?

**But you can’t force people to be Catholic and live by Catholic rules. I don’t think God wants people to be forced to believe in him. There is no merit in that. God wants people to freely come to him. **

SInce murder is against the law, it’s okay for it to be illegal? When contraception was against the law, does that mean it was okay for it to be illegal then? Let’s say we have a society where murder isn’t illegal, maybe some place without a government. Should we make murder illegal then?

**Murder is against the law, it’s is illegal. Contraception was against the law but that law was changed. It’s not agains the law now, it’s legal now. We don’t have a society where murder isn’t legal, and if we do, I don’t know of that place, nor do I live there. And I don’t know of any place that doesn’t have some kind of governing body. I don’t understand how can you make anything legal or illegal without some kind of governing body? **

 

[edwest2]

Ed,

By what standard do you believe that the war on drugs has been successful?

Here is an article from the Wall Street Journal that states that the war on drugs has been a failure:

online.wsj.com/article/SB123535114271444981.html

Instead of relying on the Wall Street Journal, could you address my points? Are we, as a society, going to say, “Sure, take all the dope you want. Then, when the dope overtakes your body and you’re a mess, we’ll pay for your treatment and rehab?” How about we teach people to avoid illegal drugs altogether so they don’t have to go through the drug disability process?

We are concerned about doped up people at work because they could hurt themselves and others.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Rence]

So, you agree that we as a society use laws to enforce moral behavoir regarding murder.

Where did I agree with that? law makers and those who support the law makers, and the majority of civilians, all agree that murde should be against the law. But law makers, those who suppport law makers, and the civilians who support the law makers are in conflict over ABCs. In fact, I don’t know anyone (in my life in general) who doesn’t use birth control. And I don’t know anyone (execpt those on this board who say so) that they want ABCs to be illegal. Therefore, where I stand it looks like the majority are in favor of the legality of ABCs. I don’t see that changing.

You may find it interesting that just a few short years ago, pre-marital sex was illegal. Laws can be changed. Pray God that soon our society comes back to moral laws.

**Where was pre-marital sex illegal? What were the ramifications? How was it enforced? Perhaps the law changed because that’s what the people wanted? I pray God that people will understand that coming to God is something that should be voluntary, and can’t be forced. While you and I have the freedom to live by the rules of the Church, those who do not want to, should not have to. **

 

[edwest2]

Rence:
The Church will let you do whatever you want. A priest won’t be pounding on your door Monday if you miss Mass on Sunday.

If we, meaning Catholics, do not propose - not force - the Catholic Answer to people, then why are we Catholics? Do we say, “Oh, you’re not Catholic so you can do whatever you want. Me, being Catholic, I have to go by the book.” Do we just create two totally separate societies?

And getting back to the OP – why do people in the United States, for example, need artificial birth control? They’re reasonable people but, apparently, their sexual desires are outside of their reasonable control?

Here is what the Church teaches: no sex outside of marriage. Period. If you are planning on getting married, you look at your circumstances and you Make Plans accordingly. I was born in the mid-1950s and despite the vicious lies promoted by some, the average family had 2, TWO, kids. Our’s did.

It all boils down to self-control for believers and nonbelievers.

Peace,
Ed

 

[kage_ar]

Can’t quote you as you replied in a quote…

Laws do not need support of the majority to be passed, the abortion laws and contraception laws are evidence of that.

Research “United States Laws on Fornication” at your library. I detest Wiki, but, in order to give you a quick answer:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornication#Jurisdictions_within_the_United_States_of_America

Jurisdictions within the United States of America
Premarital sex, adultery, and other ethical issues arising from sexual relations between consenting heterosexuals who have reached the age of majority have generally been viewed as matters of private morality, and so, have not generally been prosecuted as criminal offenses in the common law.[4] This legal position was inherited by the U.S. from the U.K… Later, some jurisdictions, a total of 16 in the southern and eastern United States, as well as the states of Wisconsin[5] and Utah[6] passed statutes creating the offense of “fornication” that prohibited (vaginal) sexual intercourse between two unmarried people of the opposite sex. Most of these laws either were repealed, were not enforced, or were struck down by the courts in several states as being odious to their state constitutions. See also State v. Saunders, 381 A.2d 333 (N.J. 1977), Martin v. Ziherl, 607 S.E.2d 367 (Va. 2005).
Some acts may be prohibited under criminal laws defining the offense of “sodomy,” rather than the laws defining the offense of “fornication.” The U.S. Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003) rendered the states’ remaining laws related to “sodomy” unconstitutional. Lawrence v. Texas is also presumed by many to invalidate laws prohibiting fornication, as the decision declared sodomy laws unconstitutional due to the interference of such laws with private, consensual, non-commercial intimate relations between unrelated adults, and therefore are odious to the rights of liberty and privacy, such rights being retained by the people of the United States.

 

[choy]

There are some who believe it causes abortion, right?

What about adultery and divorce…should they be illegal too…since those things go against Church teaching as well?

its actually illegal in a lot of countries

here’s an excerpt from the Philippine Revised Penal Code

CRIMES AGAINST CHASTITY

Chapter One
ADULTERY AND CONCUBINAGE

Art. 333. Who are guilty of adultery. — Adultery is committed by any married woman who shall have sexual intercourse with a man not her husband and by the man who has carnal knowledge of her knowing her to be married, even if the marriage be subsequently declared void.
Adultery shall be punished by prision correccional in its medium and maximum periods.

If the person guilty of adultery committed this offense while being abandoned without justification by the offended spouse, the penalty next lower in degree than that provided in the next preceding paragraph shall be imposed.

Art. 334. Concubinage. — Any husband who shall keep a mistress in the conjugal dwelling, or shall have sexual intercourse, under scandalous circumstances, with a woman who is not his wife, or shall cohabit with her in any other place, shall be punished by prision correccional in its minimum and medium periods.

The concubine shall suffer the penalty of destierro.

chanrobles.com/revisedpenalcodeofthephilippinesbook2.htm

 

[Rence]

The Church will let you do whatever you want. A priest won’t be pounding on your door Monday if you miss Mass on Sunday.

If we, meaning Catholics, do not propose - not force - the Catholic Answer to people, then why are we Catholics? Do we say, “Oh, you’re not Catholic so you can do whatever you want. Me, being Catholic, I have to go by the book.” Do we just create two totally separate societies?

And getting back to the OP – why do people in the United States, for example, need artificial birth control? They’re reasonable people but, apparently, their sexual desires are outside of their reasonable control?

Here is what the Church teaches: no sex outside of marriage. Period. If you are planning on getting married, you look at your circumstances and you Make Plans accordingly. I was born in the mid-1950s and despite the vicious lies promoted by some, the average family had 2, TWO, kids. Our’s did.

It all boils down to self-control for believers and nonbelievers.

Peace,
Ed

If you can’t control the believers, how do you expect to control the nonbelievers? I don’t see ABCs or premarital sex becoming illegal or even being enforced. I think that if you’re Catholic and want everyone else to conform to your beliefs, you’re going to have to do it by evangelizing, not by trying to force people to conform to your beliefs just because they’re your beliefs. You have to make people WANT to follow the rules of the Church.

 

[rwillenborg]

Actually, legal abortion is the biggest reason for why crime rates have fallen simply because the women who have abortion tend to be young, single, poor, and in short the kind of women who are more likely to raise future criminals.

You’re right. We wouldn’t want any children to grow up in such an environment. Better to just kill them before they get out of the womb.
let’s see…young, single and poor. Wasn’t that Barack Obama’s mother? First marriage failed, Obama eventually sent to live with grandparents. Yup, he was THISCLOSE to becoming a future criminal.
By the way, boys are also more likely to become violent criminals than girls, too. Should we off them while we’re at it?

 

[edwest2]

If you can’t control the believers, how do you expect to control the nonbelievers? I don’t see ABCs or premarital sex becoming illegal or even being enforced. I think that if you’re Catholic and want everyone else to conform to your beliefs, you’re going to have to do it by evangelizing, not by trying to force people to conform to your beliefs just because they’re your beliefs. You have to make people WANT to follow the rules of the Church.

OK. How do you propose to change things? And again, what do you say to all those nonbelieving people who can’t contain their sexual desires? It’s OK? Seriously, everyone needs to be taught that sex outside of marriage can lead to kids you don’t want. If people say they are reasonable then it should be reasonable for them to control their own sexual desires and avoid:

the unwanted baby (ies)
the unwanted abortion
paying one penny for artificial birth control

The OP’s question should get the Catholic Answer: artificial birth control should be illegal. Should Catholics vote for abortions because some people don’t believe in Church teaching? Should we never vote?

Peace,
Ed