So THAT'S why we kneel

[Hesychios]

… apart from latin bias I think that a firm argument can be made that there is an objectively superior nature to kneeling as a form of reverence regardless of the tradition of one rite to the next.

The early church mandated that* NO KNEELING* be done on Sundays during liturgy. This was mandated in Ecumenical Councils which the Roman Church signed onto, and was binding in the west as well as the east.

In the east a profound bow at the waist requires us to bend the knees in order to touch the floor with the back of our hands, and this we do (those of us who are able). Resting the weight on one or both knees we do not.

I don’t have a problem with kneeling personally, in the east we may kneel six days a week, and usually on the hard floor. But the fact is the letter the priest wrote was historically correct, and the Latin church’s later introduction of kneeling comes from the recently converted Goths, who had previously been Arian Christians (or in some cases still pagans) and this is a cultural borrowing from them. Until that time Roman Catholics had no problem standing to pray or receive communion on Sundays.

Why is everyone so mad? Probably because they are used to kneeling on solemn occasions just like their ancestors. The idea that kneeling is a superior form of reverence is culturally informed, which is why the Roman church had such a hard time controling it in the sixth and seventh centuries.

This is just one of the many small departures from the Faith and practice of the early church that one will find in Roman Catholicism if one cares to look.

Church history can be interesting.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

While respecting your post and the concerns about latinization I do not agree with the substance of your post in the context of this thread.

The Holy Father makes a compelling argument that the posture of kneeling is an eminent form of displaying adoration to our Lord across all cultures. I would argue with him that in fact there is something intrinsically more noble to kneeling than a standing or profound bow. While these are more issues dealing with interpretation of proper posture in the context of our ecclesial union with God I will leave it at that. However, apart from latin bias I think that a firm argument can be made that there is an objectively superior nature to kneeling as a form of reverence regardless of the tradition of one rite to the next.

Mosher and Pilgrim:

Although Eastern Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox, do not Prostrate themselves (“kneel”) on “The Day of the Lord’s Resurrection” (Sunday), they do kneel at various times during the Divine Liturgy to reverence our Lord Monday through Saturday.

This might be an oversimplification, but Eastern Christians believe that by standing they are celebrating the Resurrection of of our Lord and of themselves through Him and through His Church and the Sacraments.

“For as we have died with Christ Jesus, then we who have died have been raised to new life in Christ Jesus.”

I’m sure that any of the brothers and sisters belonging to the Eastern Catholic Churches, or one of the Eastern Orthodox Brothers, would gladly fill in any blanks I left or correct any errors I might have made.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[estesbob]

Karl:

This is what the Scriptures say:

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phillippians 2:9-11 NAB

The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming: “Worthy are you, Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things; because of your will they came to be and were created.”
Revelation 4:8-11 NAB

According to Dr. Scott Hahn and several others, the Revelation of St. John is the Heavenly, or Divine, Liturgy which we try to mirror (oversymplification alert) every time we celebrate the Eucharist.

If John saw the angels and Saints in Heaven kneeling before our Lord as they sang the “Sanctus”, don’t you think early Christians did as well?

And, this is what we’re supposed to do if we’re standing in the presence of God:

Then he said, “Do not come near; put off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”
Exodus 3:5 RSV

I’ve found that many who say the things this priest did often question significant points of Catholic Doctrine.

Can you get EWTN?

If not, it’s available online - ewtn.com/
Mother Angelica and her crew won’t lead you astray.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

I would say that preety much sums it up…

 

[Traditional_Ang]

In the east a profound bow at the waist requires us to bend the knees in order to touch the floor with the back of our hands, and this we do (those of us who are able). Resting the weight on one or both knees we do not.

I don’t have a problem with kneeling personally, in the east we may kneel six days a week, and usually on the hard floor. But the fact is the letter the priest wrote was historically correct, and the Latin church’s later introduction of kneeling comes from the recently converted Goths, who had previously been Arian Christians (or in some cases still pagans) and this is a cultural borrowing from them. Until that time Roman Catholics had no problem standing to pray or receive communion on Sundays.

Why is everyone so mad? Probably because they are used to kneeling on solemn occasions just like their ancestors. The idea that kneeling is a superior form of reverence is culturally informed, which is why the Roman church had such a hard time controling it in the sixth and seventh centuries.

This is just one of the many small departures from the Faith and practice of the early church that one will find in Roman Catholicism if one cares to look.

Church history can be interesting.

Michael:

Thank you for your note about the fact that the Early Church allowed “Prostration” (kneeling) on Monday through Saturday, as does the Eastern Curch today. It does prove that the priest mentioned Karl_M’s first post - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1475074&postcount=1 - was making it up.

It’s been 30 years since I attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, so I had forgotten about the way you do the “Profound Bow”. When I did martial arts, I was able to what you described, but I couldn’t come close it now if my life depended on it. Thanks to my Spine, I can’t kneel much either, and when I do, I usually do it with my face it the ground (It’s the only “kneeling” position my back can stand) - Talk about Prostration!

Although discussion the controversy might be interesting, I don’t think the purpose of this thread is to say why the Orthodox Church is Better then the Catholic Church, or vice versa (that’s a note to my fellow Catholics) - There are plenty of Forums for that.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

In the east a profound bow at the waist requires us to bend the knees in order to touch the floor with the back of our hands, and this we do (those of us who are able). Resting the weight on one or both knees we do not.

I don’t have a problem with kneeling personally, in the east we may kneel six days a week, and usually on the hard floor. But the fact is the letter the priest wrote was historically correct, and the Latin church’s later introduction of kneeling comes from the recently converted Goths, who had previously been Arian Christians (or in some cases still pagans) and this is a cultural borrowing from them. Until that time Roman Catholics had no problem standing to pray or receive communion on Sundays.

Why is everyone so mad? Probably because they are used to kneeling on solemn occasions just like their ancestors. The idea that kneeling is a superior form of reverence is culturally informed, which is why the Roman church had such a hard time controling it in the sixth and seventh centuries.

This is just one of the many small departures from the Faith and practice of the early church that one will find in Roman Catholicism if one cares to look.

Church history can be interesting.

Michael:

Thank you for your note about the fact that the Early Church allowed “Prostration” (kneeling) on Monday through Saturday, as does the Eastern Curch today. It does prove that the priest mentioned Karl_M’s first post - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1475074&postcount=1 - was making it up.

It’s been 30 years since I attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, so I had forgotten about the way you do the “Profound Bow”. When I did Martial Arts, I was able to what you described, but I couldn’t come close it now if my life depended on it. Thanks to my Spine, I can’t kneel much either, and when I do, I usually do it with my face it the ground (It’s the only “kneeling” position my back can stand) - Talk about Prostration!

Although discussion the controversy might be interesting, I don’t think the purpose of this thread is to say why the Orthodox Church is Better then the Catholic Church, or vice versa (that’s a note to my fellow Catholics) - There are plenty of Forums for that.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Hesychios]

Michael:

Thank you for your note about the fact that the Early Church allowed “Prostration” (kneeling) on Monday through Saturday, as does the Eastern Curch today. It does prove that the priest mentioned Karl_M’s first post - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1475074&postcount=1 - was making it up.

Possibly, but here it gets fuzzy.

It is always possible that the normal position for prayer was standing until the influence of the Germanic migrants. The church fathers were adament about protecting the eight day (the day of resurrection) from this kneeling but not concerned at all about the general custom of kneeling.

On those days that are marked penitential occasions we are going to drop to both our knees and press our foreheads to the floor! That’s kneeling with zest! Most visiting Latins are astounded to witness this and too embarassed to participate.

The priest may have overlooked the fact that people could kneel during the week (being concerned mostly with the Sunday crowd), or he may have better information. It is equally possible that the Christians in Rome did not kneel customarily on any day at the beginning. I know that when I go to liturgy on a weekday I forget that I may kneel, and most everyone else does too, because we don’t have the custom.

But when we do the Great Canon, or we venerate the cross, everyone gets down!

http://ocaphoto.oca.org/filetmp/2004/June/116/Detail/DSC_0143.jpg
Bottoms up!

 

[mosher]

The early church mandated that* NO KNEELING* be done on Sundays during liturgy. This was mandated in Ecumenical Councils which the Roman Church signed onto, and was binding in the west as well as the east.

Again, read the canons AND the documents of Nicea. Nicea mandates that no kneeling be done on Sundays during all liturgical seasons that were no specifically penitential, i.e. lent. In fact, it gives a specific time frame in which no kneeling is to be done which implies that kneeling is taking place as a norm otherwise. Of course this instruction of the Council is only disciplinary and can be modified such as the mandate of the Council to to hold future councils every four years (or so) and thus can be modified for a greater good.

Yes, Church history is interesting especially if it is actually studied from all sides and apart from all bias save the bias of Christ.

 

[mosher]

Mosher and Pilgrim:

Although Eastern Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox, do not Prostrate themselves (“kneel”) on “The Day of the Lord’s Resurrection” (Sunday), they do kneel at various times during the Divine Liturgy to reverence our Lord Monday through Saturday.

This might be an oversimplification, but Eastern Christians believe that by standing they are celebrating the Resurrection of of our Lord and of themselves through Him and through His Church and the Sacraments.

“For as we have died with Christ Jesus, then we who have died have been raised to new life in Christ Jesus.”

I’m sure that any of the brothers and sisters belonging to the Eastern Catholic Churches, or one of the Eastern Orthodox Brothers, would gladly fill in any blanks I left or correct any errors I might have made.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

I am well aware of this and the theology and ideology behind it. What I am saying is that it is a deficient understanding of reverence and that kneeling is a higher mode of reverence. That is the discussion that I would rather have. To me it is not an East/West tradition issue but rather a “what is more correct” issue. I think there is a reason why the West took on kneeling as a norm as opposed to the Nicean mandate through the development of a deeper understanding of the Sacra Doctrina and human response to that. There are many other things that could be noted but I will not venture to begin such a discussion assuming that is one that others would like to have. Plus it should be another thread.

 

[mosher]

Possibly, but here it gets fuzzy.

It is always possible that the normal position for prayer was standing until the influence of the Germanic migrants. The church fathers were adament about protecting the eight day (the day of resurrection) from this kneeling but not concerned at all about the general custom of kneeling.

On those days that are marked penitential occasions we are going to drop to both our knees and press our foreheads to the floor! That’s kneeling with zest! Most visiting Latins are astounded to witness this and too embarassed to participate.

The priest may have overlooked the fact that people could kneel during the week (being concerned mostly with the Sunday crowd), or he may have better information. It is equally possible that the Christians in Rome did not kneel customarily on any day at the beginning. I know that when I go to liturgy on a weekday I forget that I may kneel, and most everyone else does too, because we don’t have the custom.

But when we do the Great Canon, or we venerate the cross, everyone gets down!

Well commented.

 

[H_Opey]

What diocese is this in (the orginal letter by the priest) ?

 

[CatholicMC]

I attend numerous churches which have differing levels of orthodoxy, corolating with whether or not there are kneelers.

In the ones where there are no kneelers, I kneel on the floor during the consecration. You know what they said in Indiana Jones Raider of the Lost Ark, “Kneel before God”. I feel that it is irreverant not to.

In regards to right before receiving the Eucharist, I generall do not in non-kneeler Catholic Churches because, I could be wrong, but it seems as though this tradition is a carry-over to when the Eucharist was put on the tongue of the people at the communion rail, while kneeling.

Correct, incorrect? I don’t know. It seems right to me, but I would like to know if I am in the wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

I attend numerous churches which have differing levels of orthodoxy, corolating with whether or not there are kneelers.

In the ones where there are no kneelers, I kneel on the floor during the consecration. You know what they said in Indiana Jones Raider of the Lost Ark, “Kneel before God”. I feel that it is irreverant not to.

I do that, too. I was once (I’m never going back there!) in a church where the pews were pushed so close together that it was impossible to kneel - so I got out into the aisle and knelt down in the aisle for the Consecration, for the Agnus Dei, and after receiving Holy Communion. Nobody said anything to me about that. They also had Jesus out in the mud room, where they keep their boots in the winter time.

In regards to right before receiving the Eucharist, I generall do not in non-kneeler Catholic Churches because, I could be wrong, but it seems as though this tradition is a carry-over to when the Eucharist was put on the tongue of the people at the communion rail, while kneeling.

The current instruction (at least in our Diocese) is to make a profound bow before receiving the Eucharist standing up, unless you are participating at a Tridentine Mass, in which case (of course!) you kneel at the rail.