So the Pope wants good relations?

[Karin]

So the Pope wants good relations?
By Beth Goodtree May 10, 2005
http://web.israelinsider.com/Static/Images/transparent.gif
http://web.israelinsider.com/Static/Images/transparent.gif
The media and political pundits have been falling all over themselves since the new Pope came to power to say what a nice guy he is and how he wants to have good relations with the Jews. Never mind that he was in the Hitler Youth Corp., he was forced. But now he wants to make nice to the people who still practice the religion that Jesus did. (And no, Jesus was neither a Christian nor a Catholic; he was a Jew).

You wanna make nice Your Eminence? How about returning our stuff? All of it.

It is an established fact that the Vatican holds in its vaults priceless Jewish artifacts with both religious and historic significance. This includes a manuscript by Maimonides, which was written by a scribe in the 1400s. Maimonides, also known as Rambam, was the 12th-century doctor and sage in Egypt whose works include the first codification of Jewish law. He is considered one of the most influential of all Jewish thinkers.
to read rest of article…web.israelinsider.com/Views/5528.htm

 

[adstrinity]

So many things wrong with this article.

To quote a cliched bumper sticker, “What would Jesus say?”

First off, it’s DO, not say. I would let it go, but, author doesn’t say “paraphrase” or any synonym thereof, no, author says “quote”. This person is wrong.

Second, no, the Catholics do not pray for the day when the Messiah comes. They pray for the day he comes BACK. AND, it is not the “ultimate evil” to prevent the Messiah FROM coming back (as if we actually could).

The mere level of ignorance & antagony & allegations & suppositions & speculations in this article (not to mention shear HATE from the author & those commenting) relieves me from commenting further. I have no patience for this type of person.

 

[Celia]

I don’t really know what to say besides, what a bunch of hooey. And, there’s a really anti-christian (and yeah…catholics and christians are the same thing) tone to that whole article. If a Christian wrote an article about Judaism with the same condescending tone, sheesh, protests of anti semitism all around.

/“Recently, Jewish scholars were allowed to view this manuscript, but it has never been returned to the Jewish people. Can you imagine the hue and cry if, say, a work by St. John were being held by the Jews and not returned to the Vatican? Heck, they’d probably start another Crusade.”/

That’s really making your point well. If she wants to be taken seriously, maybe she should leave the dumb little jokes out of her essay.

Just my :twocents: …

 

[Karin]

This stuff (bashing of any non-jew) is going on all over Israel, US, Europe and MIddle East. They seem to not view Americans, Europeans or other religions very highly. As someone on this site said “the are God’s chosen people” so I guess they have the **right **to do these things???
Now this is just my :twocents: worth.

 

[David_Paul]

Beth Goodtree is trying to provoke. She wants an ugly reaction in order to unite and mobilize Jews against a perceived threat she hopes to create.

She isn’t the only one doing this:

Israeli Rabbis Hope to Search Vatican

Associated Press
Jan. 15, 2004
Gavin Rabinowitz

JERUSALEM - Israel’s chief rabbis, who will meet the pope Friday, said they hope to get permission to search Vatican storerooms for artifacts such as the huge golden menorah that stood in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. . .more

Rome was sacked many times. In the 9th century, Muslims carted off treasures from the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul. These Rabbis know that. They know nothing is there. Calling on Catholics to let them search the Vatican is agitprop.

Jews helped Persian King Chosroes II take Jerusalem in 614 A.D. 30,000 residents were sold into slavery. Jews also helped Muslims conquor Spain and fought against the Reconquista. Rabbis asking to search the Vatican make as much sense as Christians asking where Jews stashed that loot.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

article:

You wanna make nice Your Eminence? How about returning our stuff? All of it.

Whoah, settle down. Try again this time with a little less attitude. Maybe we’ll talk about it, maybe we won’t.

Now, did you say coffee or tea?

Heck, they’d probably start another Crusade.

Yes, and we’d kick your tails and get them back, too. Wanna make something of it??? :bounce:

According to George Krupp, the Vatican has the largest repository of ancient Hebrew and medieval Hebrew manuscripts in the world. Krupp is one of three living Jews to be knighted by a pope and facilitated the loan of the Maimonides manuscript, along with a few others.

Yeah, we rule. You should come by and check it out sometime. :tiphat:

When the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD 70, they took Temple treasures with them. Legend has it that religious articles from the Temple, including the menorah, were among them.

Think we got something? Yeah? Bring it on…

This request was not merely ignored, it evoked antagonism and denial in the Vatican.

That ought to give you a clue.
Don’t tell the Vatican what to do.
Doo bee doo bee doo!

Does the Vatican really want good relations with Jews? If so, it will immediately return those items it retains that are most precious to the Jewish people.

Cute, type I verbal violence as defined by Suzette Haden Elgin’s Verbal Violence Octagon. The simplest and the easiest to defend against. :yawn:

After our tea, then let’s go for a sauna and talk about it. You Jews are so materialistic, measuring friendship by material things that we got fair and square. Do I have to remind you what your guys did to our guy? :tsktsk:

In the Hebrew bible, it clearly states that the Messiah won’t come until the Third Temple is built. It also states that the Jews will build this Temple. And the Jewish people need the holy artifacts and documents held by the Vatican to build this Temple.

I’m not an expert here, but I figure we’ll get about building the kingdom of Christ and let you guys worry about temples and stuff. That is, unless other Catholics are in which case they have it covered and I’m good. There.

First global warming and now this – heavenly standoffs over a few trinkets. Wow, you’ll have to get some sleep and listen to less A.M. overnight.

So, when the Vatican refuses to return holy items to the Jews, it is, in essence, trying to prevent the Messiah from coming. And isn’t that, according to Christian doctrine, the ultimate evil? To quote a cliched bumper sticker, “What would Jesus say?”

Dudes, you sooo wouldn’t understand. :nope:

Would you like some ice cream with your tea?

Alan

 

[adstrinity]

Alan: snicker

David_Paul: Thank you for setting the record & the facts straight.

 

[catsrus]

LOL! Alan, that was one of the best refutations I’ve read in a long time. You should post it to Bgoodtree@aol.com

 

[sea_oat]

David_Paul:

Beth Goodtree is trying to provoke. She wants an ugly reaction in order to unite and mobilize Jews against a perceived threat she hopes to create.

She isn’t the only one doing this:

Israeli Rabbis Hope to Search Vatican

Associated Press
Jan. 15, 2004
Gavin Rabinowitz

JERUSALEM - Israel’s chief rabbis, who will meet the pope Friday, said they hope to get permission to search Vatican storerooms for artifacts such as the huge golden menorah that stood in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. . .more

Rome was sacked many times. In the 9th century, Muslims carted off treasures from the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul. These Rabbis know that. They know nothing is there. Calling on Catholics to let them search the Vatican is agitprop.

Jews helped Persian King Chosroes II take Jerusalem in 614 A.D. 30,000 residents were sold into slavery. Jews also helped Muslims conquor Spain and fought against the Reconquista. Rabbis asking to search the Vatican make as much sense as Christians asking where Jews stashed that loot.

Great post, David_Paul. :clapping:

 

[Karin]

To all that have posted…:clapping:

To all that believe the trash that Goodtree wrote…:bigyikes:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Karin:

To all that have posted…:clapping:

To all that believe the trash that Goodtree wrote…:bigyikes:

I guess a Goodtree can bear Badfruit, after all.

Sorry, somebody had to say it.

OK, so no they didn’t.

Alan

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually, the Jews in Israel aren’t so down on His Holiness at all:

From the Jerusalem Post online editorial
Apr. 20, 2005 23:13 | Updated Apr. 21, 2005 5:38
Pope Benedict XVI
It is a shame that some Israeli newspapers, along with some newspapers elsewhere, sensationalized the Catholic church’s choice of a new pope with headlines like, “White smoke, black past” and “From Nazi Youth to the Vatican.” Our own headline, “New pope hailed for Jewish ties,” we must say, would seem more fair and accurate.
**Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, is the first German pope in 1,000 years. In a 1997 book, Salt of the Earth, Ratzinger explained what happened when he was 14 years old: “When the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941 … I was still too young, but later as a seminarian, I was registered in the Hitler Youth. As soon as I was out of the seminary, I never went back. And that was difficult because the tuition reduction, which I really needed, was tied to proof of attendance in the Hitler Youth.” Ratzinger prevailed on a sympathetic professor, who had asked him to attend just once to obtain the necessary document, to spare him even this fleeting connection with a group he evidently wanted nothing to do with.
We do not see why the pope should be judged unfavorably for such a past. On the contrary, the new pope, like his predecessor, would seem to be acutely sensitive to the ravages of totalitarianism that he personally witnessed. **
It has been pointed out that the selection of a German pope is perhaps even more momentous than was the choice of a Pole in 1978. As Charles Moore wrote in the Daily Telegraph, “Much of Polish society retained its Catholic integrity under Communist persecution. Most of German society succumbed to Hitler, compromising itself.”

Coming from a place where Catholicism was so compromised, it is perhaps not a coincidence that Ratzinger has been known for his fierce defense of traditional Catholic doctrine against all comers, including his fellow clergy. Indeed, and also like his predecessor, Benedict XVI is expected to continue the Church’s fight for the principle of moral truth in the face of the modern world’s moral relativism.
In the homily he gave just before the conclave that chose him for the papacy, Ratzinger said, “The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves – thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. … Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism … looks like the only attitude [acceptable] to today’s standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires.”
Jews, it would seem, can recognize such a spirited case for religion, a case not unlike that Judaism has made for itself throughout history.

We should not, of course, pretend that the new pope is advocating anything but his own religion. In fact, he is credited with authoring the 2000 Vatican document “Dominus Jesus,” stating: “This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, … the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another.’”

It should be no surprise, but also no concern, that the leader of any religion prefers his own creed to another, particularly when Benedict XVI is so personally identified with John Paul II’s expressions of respect for Judaism, Jews, and Israel.

We hope and expect that the improvement in Catholic-Jewish relations will continue under his papacy. A German pope could be in a unique position to go even further than his predecessors in facing the Vatican’s troubled and not fully revealed role during the terrible era that he lived through as a young man. That role remains of obvious and great concern to the Jewish people

(Emphasis mine.)

 

[Ghosty]

In the Hebrew bible, it clearly states that the Messiah won’t come until the Third Temple is built. It also states that the Jews will build this Temple. And the Jewish people need the holy artifacts and documents held by the Vatican to build this Temple.

Uhhh, no. That is a modern interpretation based on the fact that the Second Temple was destroyed. The entirety of the Hebrew Bible was written long before the destruction of the Second Temple, and there were no prophesies about it being destroyed. When Jesus made such prophesies, it was considered scandalous. The ancient Jews had no belief in a “Third Temple” because they HAD the Second Temple right there.

If this author is correct, why didn’t the Jews celebrate the ground clearing of the Second Temple so that they could get busy building the Third Temple and usher in the Messianic Age? On the contrary, the Jews were absolutely devastated, and had to rethink their entire theology and prophesy to account for this abrupt and unforeseen destruction.

If this is the depth of the author’s knowledge of her OWN faith’s history, then she really needs to shut her mouth about ours. Her ignorance borders on criminal.

 

[MiddleBear]

So this article just goes to show you that there are anti-Catholic Jewish bigots out there too.

 

[Karin]

MiddleBear:

So this article just goes to show you that there are anti-Catholic Jewish bigots out there too.

But it is not a crime to be an anti-Catholic bigot…