So what if Jesus said He's the bread of life?! Jesus said He's the door too!

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“That doesn’t mean He’s literally a door! Jesus spoke in parables.”

Have you heard this argument against the real presence? How would you respond? 🙂 🌻
 
I go to early statements in the Fathers (Apostolic and Justin Martyr) to prove that Jesus saying He was the bread of life was distinct from saying He was the door, because it was read as something different.
 
Justin Martyr (100-165AD) on the Eucharist: And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
 
Guest1 said:
“That doesn’t mean He’s literally a door! Jesus spoke in parables.”

Have you heard this argument against the real presence? How would you respond? 🙂 🌻
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John 6: 48-51. 48 I’m the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that a person may eat it and not die. 51 I’m the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats this bread, he’ll live forever. And the bread I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

So He actually said it. But of course He might have been using a figure of speech, right?

Verse 52: 52 Then the Jewish leadersr debated angrily with each other, asking, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
So they were skeptical.

Verses 53-58. “Truly, I tell all of yous emphatically, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I’ll raise him to life on the last day, 55 because my flesh is realt food, and my blood is realu drink. 56 The person who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will also live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not the kind that your ancestors ate. They died, but the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

He uses words like 'emphatically" and says “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
This in response to people not believing that he could mean it.

Verse 66: 66 As a result,w many of his disciples turned back and no longer associatedx with him.

His reaction? 67 So Jesus asked the Twelve, “You don’t want to leave, too, do you?”

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Besides, we have believed and remain convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”y

So it’s pretty clear in scripture that Jesus meant what He said and that He insisted on it when others wanted Him to take it back.
 
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In the early manuscripts of John 6, the Greek word here translated as “eat” has a more physical meaning, like chew or gnaw. If the word originally spoken by Jesus (in Aramaic, I imagine, or Hebrew?) has a similar connotation, that would support the notion of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, and the Jews’ revulsion at the thought of eating flesh.
 
That’s, I think, Zwingli’s classic argument against Real Presence.

The reaction of the hearers in John 6 shows they’re not taking it symbolically. They’re angry and, probably, grossed out (“This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?”, John 6:60), and the Bread of Life discourse becomes the decisive tipping point for being (or not being) a disciple of Jesus.

Then, of course, in the Synoptic Gospels Jesus actually joins the gesture to the teaching, and commands his disciples to eat and drink his body and blood.

I’m not aware of Jesus showing a door to his disciples and commanding them to go through it. Had he done so (“This is my body; go through it in memory of me”), it would probably be a Christian rite by now, and we would maybe be arguing about the Real Presence in a consecrated door; but he didn’t. That’s a sign he didn’t put the same weight and emphasis on “I am the door” (or “I am the vine”, or “I am the way”) as on “I am the Bread of life”.
 
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I would never even bother to argue with someone who can’t be bothered to read the whole text .
 
But when disciples left him over this “hard saying” he didn’t say “wait it’s just a parable!” He let them go. I think he would have stopped them if he didn’t mean it literally but they were taking it that way.
 
Guest1 said:
“That doesn’t mean He’s literally a door! Jesus spoke in parables.”

Have you heard this argument against the real presence? How would you respond? 🙂 🌻
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The verses in John where Jesus presses the subject even when many of the disciples leave makes it clear that Our Lord wasn’t using an expression.
 
Guest1 said:
“That doesn’t mean He’s literally a door! Jesus spoke in parables.”

Have you heard this argument against the real presence? How would you respond? 🙂 🌻
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No. However note that he said not just “the door” but rather as in John 10:7 “the door of the sheep”:
Jesus therefore said to them again: Amen, amen I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
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The Gentiles not then converted, are the sheep not yet in the fold, and Jesus Christ is the good shepherd.
 
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We all speak in various forms at various times. Jesus was no different. I think the reaction of the people was put in, as others have said, to make it very clear that he was speaking literally at that point.
 
A silly argument! Nothing refutes history and the writings of the Early Church Fathers!
 
Guest1 said:
“That doesn’t mean He’s literally a door! Jesus spoke in parables.”

Have you heard this argument against the real presence? How would you respond? 🙂 🌻
Click to expand...
Because when people walked away after He told them to eat His flesh and drink His blood, He didn’t go after them and offer further explanation. He just let them go. If He had been using a figure of speech, He would have gone after them and explained further.
 
The Apostles and Christians everywhere believed in the real presence for 1500 years until Luther came along to doubt it. That is good enough for me to believe in it.
 
Well yes that is an interesting take and I have heard before. I cannot remember which apologist tackled it perhaps it was Dr. Anders.
Anyhow. the door, let’s look at the evidence, It is quite simple
Here is Jesus talking about HIM being the door:
John 10:7 Therefore, Jesus spoke to them again: “Amen, amen, I say to you, that I am the door of the sheep.
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It is 1 verse long. Lets see the bread of life discourse:
John 6:47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me has eternal life. 6:48 I am the bread of life. 6:49 Your fathers ate manna in the desert, and they died. 6:50 This is the bread which descends from heaven, so that if anyone will eat from it, he may not die. 6:51 I am the living bread, who descended from heaven. 6:52 If anyone eats from this bread, he shall live in eternity. And the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.” 6:53 Therefore, the Jews debated among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 6:54 And so, Jesus said to them: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. 6:55 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 6:56 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 6:57 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 6:58 Just as the living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so also whoever eats me, the same shall live because of me. 6:59 This is the bread that descends from heaven. It is not like the manna that your fathers ate, for they died. Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.”
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So, which one do you think the Jews listening to Jesus took as figurative speech?
I do not think anyone would doubt that the first one is figurative and the 2nd one is not, Jesus did not go out of His way to let the listeners know “Hey guys you are not getting it, I am an actual door!!!” Like HE so forcefully did for the Bread discourse.
AND one needs to understand that in the original Greek Jesus was actually upping the ante on the verbs HE used for “eat” changed in the text to more literal versions of the act of eating, which point to the very literal interpretation given by the Church Fathers and the Church for the last 2000 years.

Peace!
 
I would tell them guest1, that Jesus kept repeating his command to eat His flesh eight times.

The Holy Spirit and St. John had Jesus using the Greek works “phago” and/or “trogo” EIGHT times!

Jesus does not keep saying “I am the door” in a literal sense.

He doesn’t say . . . “Amen Amen I say to you, you must turn the handle on me!”

He does not say . . . “Unless you push me on my hinges, you have no life in you!”

And if that wasn’t enough, just look at how the Jewish people take our Lord’s word . . .
JOHN 6:52 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
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.

There is nothing like this with Jesus’ “I am the door” comment in John 10:9.

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JOHN 10:9 9 I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
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NOT JOHN 10:10 10 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give expect us to turn the handle." And "If we could just see his hinges, we would be good with this!"
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Does this help?

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
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