So what is the Catechesis for standing for Communion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter scylla
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

scylla

Guest
The last thread where I asked this died, without one Catholic response. The aussie thread brought this back to my mind…

“160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

What is the catechesis? I think that this was put in to make us ask this question, as I have not seen a good answer.
Is there a good Catholic answer?

Unity is not a good answer because if we all kneeled then it doesn’t make a difference.

Because the early Church stood, that is a lousy answer because it discounts tradition and development of reverence.

Because Eastern Catholics stand, is not correct because we this thread is about Roman Catholics.

So can someone please resolve this for me because I will continue to stand until I we get an altar rail put in and recieve communion as we should. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Is there any reason not to bring back the rail? Vatican II certain says nothing about removing it.

God Bless
Scylla
 
I’ve asked this question myself. After all, we all had unity of posture until about 1970 when this standing thing started. So, as you ask, what is the catechesis?

I myself have heard two reasons.

1), We are a “Resurrection People”. What a meaningless phrase! We are also a fallen, sinful people of whom it is said that every knee shall bend to our Lord.
  1. It signifies our human dignity. See my reply to #1.
And in addition, why don’t answers #1 and #2 apply to those other times in the Mass when we still kneel? :rolleyes:
 
scylla said:
Because the early Church stood, that is a lousy answer because it discounts tradition and development of reverence.
Click to expand...
Are you implying that the early Church did not have reverence for the Blessed Sacrament?
 
(I am not sure what happened to the post that I just responded to, maybe it just got lost, it was asking if I was denigraing the early Church)

No, I am stating that as we understand what leads to irreverence and fosters belief we develop traditions that reflect our belief in dogma. As time passes we develop traditions.

Our traditions reflect our belief in truth. That is why it is wrong to change them, if it doesn’t reflect that truth. If it reflects a rejection of that truth then why are we changing them?
Fashion? comfort? modernism?

I am not denigrating the early Church.

What do you think is the proper Catechesis for this?

God Bless
Scylla
 
I can’t see what could possibly be the catechesis for this since Rome has already said that kneeling is the norm and proper and obedient and licit.
 
Perhaps we should look to and draw upon the reasons the early Church stood.

It was a tradition before it was changed to what some think of now as ‘traditional’.

There was something very very right in how they handled it to allow the Church to survive and thrive to be with us now.
 
Things may soon change under Pope Benedict.
cathcon.blogspot.com/2007/11/sanctuary-as-place-of-confusion.html

The secretary of the Congregation Roman liturgy, Archbishop Malcolm Ranjih

“This practice, and the abolition of Communion benches before the sanctuary and kneeling benches in the Churches and the introduction of practices, which the faithful force during the consecration to sit or stand, diminish the true meaning of the Eucharist.”
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Perhaps we should look to and draw upon the reasons the early Church stood.

It was a tradition before it was changed to what some think of now as ‘traditional’.

There was something very very right in how they handled it to allow the Church to survive and thrive to be with us now.
Click to expand...
So what would that reason be? I know they also did not have the ability to build Churches or even install Altar Rails.
Maybe because they didn’t get to that point yet.

What would the reason be? If there is no reason reflected in our dogma then it would be just a rejection of tradition and its reflection of dogma to want to stand.

So what is the Catholic reason since just trying to be like the early Church is a rejection of tradition and it’s reflection of dogma.

God Bless
Scylla
 
🤷 No clue. I figure they took out the rails…thus some folks; but not all cannot kneel without holding on to something or else they will fall over, hence we all stand.
 
scylla said:
So what would that reason be? I know they also did not have the ability to build Churches or even install Altar Rails.
Maybe because they didn’t get to that point yet.

What would the reason be? If there is no reason reflected in our dogma then it would be just a rejection of tradition and its reflection of dogma to want to stand.

So what is the Catholic reason since just trying to be like the early Church is a rejection of tradition and it’s reflection of dogma.

God Bless
Scylla
Click to expand...
Is the ability to install altar rails vital to anything?

Didn’t ‘get to that point’?? That does not make much sense unless you know of official writings and teachings where they bemoaned the inability to have altar rails and receive kneeling.

What dogma is rejected by standing for Communion?

The early Church is also part of our tradition - should we dismiss them so easily as a lesser part of the Church in preference for some other part?
 
scylla said:
So what would that reason be? I know they also did not have the ability to build Churches or even install Altar Rails.
Maybe because they didn’t get to that point yet.

What would the reason be? If there is no reason reflected in our dogma then it would be just a rejection of tradition and its reflection of dogma to want to stand.

So what is the Catholic reason since just trying to be like the early Church is a rejection of tradition and it’s reflection of dogma.

God Bless
Scylla
Click to expand...
ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw2002.htm

“His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice **of kneeling for Holy Communion **has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.”
 
Here’s my guess.
  1. Some people can’t kneel. This is really obvious at daily mass where I’m 56 and the youngest one in the congregation by far.
  2. Without the altar rails, it would slow communion down considerably if everybody in line took the time to get on their knees (at the risk of not being able to get back up without help).
I’m not dismissing the tradition based comments, or theological ones, but it could be that it’s the norm for purely practical reasons.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Perhaps we should look to and draw upon the reasons the early Church stood. It was a tradition before it was changed to what some think of now as ‘traditional’. There was something very very right in how they handled it to allow the Church to survive and thrive to be with us now.
Click to expand...
Like with headcoverings for women!
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Was standing a cultural norm like headcoverings for women?
Click to expand...
We see that standing is the norm in the Eastern Catholic rites, whereas kneeling is the norm in the Western Catholic rites. They still stand in the East, and until a few decades ago, we still knelt in the West.

Head-coverings are still traditional in some rites of the East. They were also traditional in the West as well (as well as Canon Law in 1917), until a few decades ago.

How do you suggest we determine which were “cultural” norms and which are not?
 
ricmat said:
Here’s my guess.
  1. Some people can’t kneel. This is really obvious at daily mass where I’m 56 and the youngest one in the congregation by far.
  2. Without the altar rails, it would slow communion down considerably if everybody in line took the time to get on their knees (at the risk of not being able to get back up without help).
I’m not dismissing the tradition based comments, or theological ones, but it could be that it’s the norm for purely practical reasons.
Click to expand...
You are correct with the reason why the bishops asked for this change on receiving Holy Communion standing.
I got curious and did some digging, and I found a response to this from an Achbishop in 2004 .
This letter shares with us the concern for kneeling, disappointment in standing, reasons for bishops choosing standing, and how we are to receive reverently despite this decision.

mariancatechist.com/html/spiritualdevelopment/holysacrificeofthemass/receivingholycommunion.htm

by Archbishop Raymond L. Burke, D.D., J.C.D.
National Director of the Marian Catechist Apostolate
January 2004

General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
Frequently, members of the Apostolate raise questions to me about the ongoing spiritual practices of Marian Catechists. Recently, the questions have centered a good deal around the discipline of the Sacred Liturgy set forth in the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani or General Instruction of the Roman Missal, sometimes popularly referred by the acronym, GIRM. One of the most frequent questions pertains to the posture and gestures to be employed in receiving Holy Communion.

I know that Father Hardon insisted very much that Marian Catechists should always kneel in receiving Holy Communion. Recognizing our unworthiness to approach the Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament, there can be no question that kneeling is the most appropriate posture for the reception of Holy Communion.

The Bishops of the United States, in view of fostering unity among the faithful in the most sacred action of receiving the true Body and Blood of Christ and having concern for large congregations coming forward in procession to receive Holy Communion, have established standing as the posture for receiving Holy Communion in our nation. “The norm for the reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm” (General Instruction of the Roman Missal, n. 160b). Even though Father Hardon rightly preferred Marian Catechists to receive Holy Communion kneeling, he also submitted himself humbly to legitimate Church authority and expected the same of Marian Catechists. Therefore, I know that he would want us to be examples of Christ-like obedience, especially at the most sacred moment of the reception of Holy Communion.

The Bishops of the United States give further instruction regarding the posture for receiving Holy Communion, which it is important for us to know. One does not just stand before receiving the Sacred Host or the Precious Blood. The Bishops give the following instruction: “When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister… When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood” (Ibid., n. 160c).

I hope that the above clarifies the question regarding the correct posture for receiving Holy Communion. In any case, we should all be very respectful of the postures which are used to express faith in the Real Presence. What is most important is the interior disposition of the communicant, which will be transparent to others of faith, no matter what reverent gesture is employed. To those who are disappointed with the norm of standing to receive Holy Communion in the United States, I offer the following spiritual counsel: As you approach to receive our Lord in Holy Communion, genuflect before Him in your heart. Let your reverent bow before receiving Holy Communion reflect your internal genuflection, in total adoration, before the Real Presence.

Copyright © The Marian Catechist

I prefer kneeling just like others here, but as a Roman Catholic we are to submit ourselves humbly to legitimate Church authority.🙂

Blessings
 
pray4peace said:
I prefer kneeling just like others here, but as a Roman Catholic we are to submit ourselves humbly to legitimate Church authority.🙂

Blessings
Click to expand...
And Rome has said that the universal norm is kneeling and only granted an indult for standing on the understanding that anyone who opts to kneel be given communion and not considered to be disobedient or acting illicitly.
 
pray4peace said:
You are correct with the reason why the bishops asked for this change on receiving Holy Communion standing.
I got curious and did some digging, and I found a response to this from an Achbishop in 2004 .
T

I prefer kneeling just like others here, but as a Roman Catholic we are to submit ourselves humbly to legitimate Church authority.🙂

Blessings
Click to expand...
You dug in the wrong place. The following is from the top legitimate Church authority–The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments — who speak with the authority of the Pope.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/cdw2002.htm
 
scylla said:
…Unity is not a good answer because if we all kneeled then it doesn’t make a difference. …
Click to expand...
Of course the suggestion is not that priest kneel while distributing communion. The suggestion is that he stand while everyone kneels in front of him.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
 
Eilish_Maura said:
Is the ability to install altar rails vital to anything?

Didn’t ‘get to that point’?? That does not make much sense unless you know of official writings and teachings where they bemoaned the inability to have altar rails and receive kneeling.

What dogma is rejected by standing for Communion?

The early Church is also part of our tradition - should we dismiss them so easily as a lesser part of the Church in preference for some other part?
Click to expand...
Let me explain as there needs to be no official writings that speak of there not being altar rails when there are none, since they didn’t exist yet.
They reverenced the Body of Christ. This is expressed in our actions and posture. As time developed we started to kneel and receive kneeling to reflect the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Of course they didn’t do that in the beginning, altar rails did not exist, they didn’t have missals either, does that mean we need to go back to scrolls?

We do what best expresses our faith, now can you please give a good reason what is the proper catechesis then which reflects this?

It is traditional Catholic understanding that we kneel in the presence of Jesus, to change that without a good reason is showing a rejection of that understanding by our actions.

This is why I am interested in an answer.

It seems this comes out of a rejection of tradition and a desire to restore early Church practices regardless of tradition and Catholic understanding of respect for Christ.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top