So, when is it "adultry with the heart?"

[flick427]

This one always confuses me, and I wonder mostly for the purposes of dealing with the disruptive thoughts and to better my confessions.
I am single and the majority of the time that I see a beautiful women, I admire that and think sigh “Lord, I sure would like to have a beautiful woman like that to fall in love with”…
…but of course there is that problem that I am sure many men have…about a thousand perverted thoughts suddenly jump into your head and you think “what is going on here, that’s messed up!”:banghead: It is like being attacked. I pray about it and that helps deal with it of course, but I’d like to inform my conscience better so I can better myself…and this is really hard to do with all of the smut around this world that make women look like nothing but objects of lust. I can avoid it for the most part, but sometime it happens without warning and some unexpected movie scene comes on or some scantily clad women walks by…ugh:banghead: …
So I am wondering when it is exactly that you commit adultry with the heart and “lust” after a woman, and is there any good sources on this that go into a little more detail on what it is and how to better deal with it. I suppose I could walk around with my eyes closed and avoid the problem all together, but that would be a little bizarre.

 

[RCEllis]

Random thoughts are never sinful - it’s when you willfully entertain them that they become sinful.

Don’t get mired in guilt when stray thoughts come into your mind. That will only make it worse. Just gently push them aside.

But don’t shut your eyes to beauty - the woman you notice would probably be happy that you appreciated her appearance, so turn it around: be happy for her. God makes beautiful things, and many of them are flowers, and pretty girls and smiles.

Clint

 

[my_third_alias]

RCEllis:

Random thoughts are never sinful - it’s when you willfully entertain them that they become sinful.

Don’t get mired in guilt when stray thoughts come into your mind. That will only make it worse. Just gently push them aside.

But don’t shut your eyes to beauty - the woman you notice would probably be happy that you appreciated her appearance, so turn it around: be happy for her. God makes beautiful things, and many of them are flowers, and pretty girls and smiles.

Clint

I personaly think random/lustful thaughts are harmful to the soul, keep it to mind theres no excuse for sin. If you didnt feel the guilt then that means your ignoring what you feel when you know deep down its wrong. As for looking at women or girls in a lustful fashion yes i believe its wrong. How would it feel if you saw a priest stairing at a woman who has a husband but that husband isnt around or even a priest looking at a woman in a lustful way. Priests are representatives of GOD and Jesus is an example for all to follow. If you want a girlfriend for all the wrong reasons Flick427 ask yourself if you want someone who brings you further away from Christ or closer. Read Matthew chapter 11 verse 39. Sorry RCEllis but it says somewere in the bible about teaching wrong things and loosing a part of your way in entering into heven by doing so. ← this is my way of explaining this but of corse its different in the bible, so dont be upset with me RC let the bible speak for itself. I just want Flick427 to go the right way about things. I want both of you to read Matthew chapter 5, verse 27 all the way up to verse 30<–This is a must read to shed more light on the subject. Im not a teacher or a priest so keep that in mind if you decide to do what the bible says but i think its only right to tell you whats right. These are not my words RCEllis but Jesus say it himself but sorry if i gave any wrong interpretations.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

What Jesus was showing in that statement, is that the Human heart tends to evil…and even just thinking about a woman…makes us to sin…this is to show how absolutely dependant upon him and how helpless we truly are.

Its NOT meant to mean that whenever we see a woman and a lustful thought pops into our mind, we must now run to confession beofre taking communion again…as long as we make an effort to avert our eyes…and get rid of the thought. Now, if you develop an entire scenario in your head, and just wont let it go…then you better head to confession…

 

[Tom]

flick427:

about a thousand perverted thoughts suddenly jump into your head … sometime it happens without warning and some unexpected movie scene comes on or some scantily clad women walks by…

Need to separate the nature from the sin. It is natural to admire beauty. It is sinful to “lust”. Looking at a beautiful … anything… is not sin. Wanting it for yourself may be a sin.

flick427:

this is really hard to do with all of the smut around this world that make women look like nothing but objects of lust. It is like being attacked.

One correction, you say it’s “like” an attack. Not simply “like” an attack, it IS an attack, and a constant one.

flick427:

So I am wondering when it is exactly that you commit adultry with the heart and “lust” after a woman, and is there any good sources on this that go into a little more detail on what it is and how to better deal with it.

The sin enters when you entertain these thoughts (or allow them to entertain you!). The lust enters when you allow your mind to develop sexual thoughts about her. I have the same problem; the absolute best answer for me has been Mary. Say a Hail Mary, think of our blessed mother. Nothing takes lust out of my mind quicker than thinking of the Virgin Mary.
Random thoughts are not sin, but they can lead you into sin, that’s Satan’s plan.

 

[Kell-Kell]

Keep your thoughts pure. There is a free download of pure mind scripture on dads.org. Maybe that will help.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

It’s a mystery how even well-intentioned committed Catholics can fall into thoughts about sex etc. It makes us realize just how weak we are. We should learn to laugh at how Satan is always trying to throw us off and show how weak we are. You may have some thoughts, when you become conscious of it, just move on to something else that you probably should be doing to begin with

“When I am weak, then I am strong.” - St Paul.

As long as you don’t purposefully dwell - don’t feel overly guilty. Satan wants you to feel guilty, worthless, and weak. That’s his game. Then you’ll give up and sin more. Jesus redeems us 24 hours a day. Enjoy Him! He can pick you up from your impure thoughts.

I think one thing we Catholics can learn is that Jesus forgives us always if we pick up from our stumbles. Confession is only strictly required for mortal sin. I think you’d have to purposefully dwell for a long time for a mortal sin. I don’t know when our thoughts alone become be a mortal sin as long as they don’t become a real intention.

That’s what I think adultery refers to. What is your real intention. You may have some thoughts (which you should peacefully quell) but would you really act on them? If the answer is yes, then that’s adultery of the heart - you actually wanted to commit adultery.

It teaches us about our own motives. Jesus is leading us to self-knowledge. He’s the way the truth and the life.

And we KNOW HE IS.

 

[my_third_alias]

Its clear what my referances say and if you deny what they say and promote it being ok to look at a woman and admire, why does your conscience feel its wrong? Isnt it said that your conscience is God talking to you? If you don’t feel guilty then you are too far gone from going against the word. If you refuse to believe this than you just dont want to be guilty for it and promoting it to others which is not advisable in my earlier reply. It takes alot of self discipline to carry out the things Jesus wants (this was what my first referance was about). Anyone who reads this dont feel offended. If you do feel offended then I guess you follow the traits of the people who rejected him as the Messiah. Im disapointed that this many Catholics advise this being ok. “Sin opens up more sin” this is supposively one of the Catholic Churches teachings and its also clear on my second referance also. If I felt my advice to be wrong I would have never spoken up. Sorry if I upset anyone in this thread.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Just in case there is any confusion, I will clarify. I am not saying we should accept impure thoughts, I am saying we should reject them. But I don’t think we need to lie about our human nature and pretend we don’t have them. The key is not to purposefully continue with them. The problem is that if we get anxious about them, we can sometimes continue having them. “What I want to do, I don’t do and what I don’t want to do, I do.” - Saint Paul. At mass the priest says “…keep us free frm SIN and all ANXIETY”. :yup:

The KEY is to PRACTICE being holy and if you have impure thoughts, pass them by and pray, but stay in PEACE.

I think we should show compassion about this and be merciful as Jesus is merciful. We need to understand just how loving and merciful Jesus is. He wants to HELP us, NOT CONDEMN us and He does not want us to condemn ourselves.

Make sense? Do people see what I mean or am I missing something?

 

[flick427]

I think most of all this makes sense, it is not the random thought that makes it wrong, but the acceptance of it. It is mentally hard to figure out, (when your mind says yes, and the heart says no, so you go with the heart because you do not wish to offend Our Lord). I am trying to basically from my conscience better, and hope that I can “train” it along with my heart and mind to be more and more geared toward God’s Holy Will.

Thanks everyone for all of the thought and opinions.

 

[Catholic_Girl]

“Lord, I sure would like to have a beautiful woman like that to fall in love with”…

I think that it shouldn’t be the physical appearance that you should be focusing on but the true beauty that lies within a person. That is the true gift from God. If you can learn to look pass the looks, those lustful feelings can be taken away. A lot of people misunderstands the meaning of love and replaces it with the meaning of lust instead. The bible has the true meaning of what love is. You say you would like to have a beautiful woman to fall in love with but i think you got love mixed up with lust. Why does it have to be a physically beautiful woman? You are seeking for all the wrongs in a woman. Just as quoted at the top, “a beautiful woman like that”, you have already committed adultury with that person you’re thinking of (as this teaches in the bible). God has the right person for you here on earth just as he did for Adam with Eve. Once you fall in “true” love with someone, her looks would not be your main concern anymore, so why ask for someone beautiful when you should ask for someone “true”. Who knows the one that was meant for you from God, the one to bring you true happiness, can be sitting in front you, but you refuse her just because she is not pleasing to the eye. That is being unfair and will be your big loss. A person that really loves you will bring you closer to God, not further away by lust. I hope this can help you a little more on finding a soulmate.

 

[my_third_alias]

flick427:

it is not the random thought that makes it wrong, but the acceptance of it.

So what your saying its ok to think random/sinful thoughts and not accept it? You are held accountable for all your sins. So if I had a random blasphamy thought its ok as long as i dont accept it? You are going completely against the bible like the people you’re listenig to unless I misunderstood what the bible says. but like I said the bible speaks for itself, no need to explain it when its all clear. My last post said about sin opening the gates for more sin which seemed to go thru one ear and out the other, as if you threw away the advice that i refered to you in the bible which happened to be Jesus himself speaking. Why would you prefer the advice that a human tells you above Jesus advising you. Read your post that started this thread Flick427 you now are telling me its ok to go against your guilt because people said its ok. I want you to read all the posts i put on this thread and check the referances too if your too busy to check the referances I can post it here for you. You wanted advice but you decided not to decern. If you dont know what decern is its doing whats right above what you want to hear. If you took this post to offense then you are following the footsteps of the people who hated Jesus because he came to tell the truth and the people hated him for the reason that they didnt want to be accountable for their sins.<-- tooken from the gospel of John but in my words not exact from the bible.

 

[my_third_alias]

Catholic Girl:

I think that it shouldn’t be the physical appearance that you should be focusing on but the true beauty that lies within a person. That is the true gift from God. If you can learn to look pass the looks, those lustful feelings can be taken away. A lot of people misunderstands the meaning of love and replaces it with the meaning of lust instead. The bible has the true meaning of what love is. You say you would like to have a beautiful woman to fall in love with but i think you got love mixed up with lust. Why does it have to be a physically beautiful woman? You are seeking for all the wrongs in a woman. Just as quoted at the top, “a beautiful woman like that”, you have already committed adultury with that person you’re thinking of (as this teaches in the bible). God has the right person for you here on earth just as he did for Adam with Eve. Once you fall in “true” love with someone, her looks would not be your main concern anymore, so why ask for someone beautiful when you should ask for someone “true”. Who knows the one that was meant for you from God, the one to bring you true happiness, can be sitting in front you, but you refuse her just because she is not pleasing to the eye. That is being unfair and will be your big loss. A person that really loves you will bring you closer to God, not further away by lust. I hope this can help you a little more on finding a soulmate.

Amen to that one:yup: .

 

[my_third_alias]

my third alias:

Read Matthew chapter 11 verse 39

I posted this as a referance and its my mistake its actualy Matthew 10 verse 39 sorry about that.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Mortal sin requires knowledge and full consent. This is infalliable Church teaching. Not every thought we have comes with full consent. Thus, an impure thought does not automatically put you in a state of mortal sin.

Scott

 

[Tom]

I think we’re debating what constitutes sin. There really shouldn’t be a dispute. The CCC describes when sin is committed and when it is not. Scripture does not address random thoughts. Please refer to the CCC, Chap 1 Article 8, Sin. It has a wonderful explanation. If I may just give a brief example: 1849 “Sin is and offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

 

[fraggle]

my third alias, if you’re being serious about being this critical and judgmental, then you desperately need to read the works from the Doctors of the Church who taught about this problem and gave a advice similar to those here (but also advising when it IS necessary to be more aggressive to defend oneself from sin…which is a matter of spiritual discernment, which can not be resolved by idealized, generalized, absolutist maxims alone, but by much spiritual direction) that you criticize:

St. Augustine
St. Ignatius of Loyola
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John of the Cross (especially in “Ascent of Mount Carmel”)
St. Teresa of Avila (especially in “Interior Castle”)

fyi, not only St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila were mystics, but they’re often recognized as “proto-psychologists,” with great insights into the interiority of the human person and the limits of human nature as well as its capacity for God.

the writings of the Desert Fathers (and Mothers!) may also help too, especially the writings of John Cassian.

one thing we should be reminded by from the Orthodox Christian tradition is that the Church is a Holy Hospital for sinners. we’re all in the same boat, and often are in need of help to work out our salvation with our Lord. we don’t help each other at all when we put unnecessary guilt trips on people and scare them into spiritual paralysis, in fact, such only gets in the way of the Lord’s work in us. and we must recognize that different have different spiritual needs and some need to have a verbal “slap in the face by reality” and some need greater care and sensitivity it dealing with them. so that’s why the Church recommends spiritual direction, plus the fact that where two or more are gathered in the name of Christ, there Christ is with them. and much prayer for Christ’s guidance is need by both director and directee.

as for myself, i find a good way to “distract” myself from distracting thoughts is to recite the Jesus Prayer:

“O Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!”

 

[my_third_alias]

**Here, this is comeing directly from the New American Bible word for word its titled “Teaching about adultry” and its in Matthew chapter 5 verse 27-30 as I said in 1 of my earlier posts.“You have heard that it is said, You shall not commit adultry. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultry with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna”. **

 

[fraggle]

and who among us in this thread is so pure as to be able to follow Jesus’ commands without ever having to work and practice hard at it and throwing ourselves to His grace without ever stumbling along the way?

some of us have a longer road to purity of heart than others, often due to our individual differences and the different spiritual gifts and paths God bestows upon us.

the issue then is not so much how sinful and dangerous these thoughts really are, but what on earth do we do about them until we finally reach purity of heart??? not everyone benefits by quaking in their boots over how horrible these sins are. there is a good fear and guilt that allows us to reject the bad and accept the good. and there is a bad fear and guilt that just paralyzes us into despondency, allowing the devil to what he wishes with us. the Church has a name for this condition, it’s called “scruplosity” and She sure doesn’t recommend it as a way to deal with sin.

 

[my_third_alias]

fraggle:

my third alias, if you’re being serious about being this critical and judgmental, then you desperately need to read the works from the Doctors of the Church who taught about this problem and gave a advice similar to those here (but also advising when it IS necessary to be more aggressive to defend oneself from sin…which is a matter of spiritual discernment, which can not be resolved by idealized, generalized, absolutist maxims alone, but by much spiritual direction) that you criticize:

St. Augustine
St. Ignatius of Loyola
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John of the Cross (especially in “Ascent of Mount Carmel”)
St. Teresa of Avila (especially in “Interior Castle”)

fyi, not only St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila were mystics, but they’re often recognized as “proto-psychologists,” with great insights into the interiority of the human person and the limits of human nature as well as its capacity for God.

the writings of the Desert Fathers (and Mothers!) may also help too, especially the writings of John Cassian.

one thing we should be reminded by from the Orthodox Christian tradition is that the Church is a Holy Hospital for sinners. we’re all in the same boat, and often are in need of help to work out our salvation with our Lord. we don’t help each other at all when we put unnecessary guilt trips on people and scare them into spiritual paralysis, in fact, such only gets in the way of the Lord’s work in us. and we must recognize that different have different spiritual needs and some need to have a verbal “slap in the face by reality” and some need greater care and sensitivity it dealing with them. so that’s why the Church recommends spiritual direction, plus the fact that where two or more are gathered in the name of Christ, there Christ is with them. and much prayer for Christ’s guidance is need by both director and directee.

as for myself, i find a good way to “distract” myself from distracting thoughts is to recite the Jesus Prayer:

“O Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!”

I was not being critical or judgemental, you think that because its the way you interprate my posts. I actualy think Flick427 has the principal down to know what his goal is but to say that sin opens up more sin is a Catholic teaching not my own. If im criticizing as you asumed then I guess your saying random/sinful thoughts are completely ok like the other people on this thread who agree with you. My goal was never to put a guilt trip on anyone but for you to accuse me of that is judging me. I never said random thoughts are none acceptable or even considered a mortal sin. I implied that for someone who goes against what the bible says is being like the people who reject Jesus as the messiah and by saying that im sorry if I offended or scared anyone. If i disbelieved what Jesus said, would that not be rejecting his teaching? Yes, I believe we are all in the same boat as sinners. I don’t even know if ill make it to heven. If I gave bad advice or hurt anyones feelings in this thread in any way im sorry for that,please find it in your heart to forgive me.